800M mark - Schurmann

[jackk]

Is anyone familiar with this mark? Is this 800 silver or silverplate?

Thanks,
Jack

[jackk]

Ok, so far I have not found an answer to my question above. However, I managed to talk to one of the reputable silver dealers in NY, who has said that she has seen this mark a few times before, and if she remembers correctly in all instances these were silver items with glass. Is this possible that 800M mark was used exclusively on such products?

[jackk]

800M mark is definitely silver, I have tested the object and it comes out as silver.
Now, few questions that arise.

As I understand, 800 mark was introduced in 1884, however my object I believe is to be from 1881 and is still marked "800". Was there a "free" transition period between "12" marks and "800" marks that were used on German silver?

Does anyone out there have examples of work by Schurmann that they want to share on these boards? Any history or bio of this maker? There is not too much info on him on the net, and Rosenberg is not very detailed either. A picture of my item will be posted over the weekend.

[2209patrick]

Hello.

Might be the Schurmann who was located in Frankfort Germany during the late 19th century.
Don't know much about the firm.

Pat

[jackk]

I am sure this is by Schurmann from Frankfurt. I just cannot find too much information about his work. So far, I found that he was an important silver smith at a time and his work was many times custom ordered by wealthy families. Basically, that's all i found plus three examples of his work.
I am attaching a picture of my item.

[Bahner]

Hello, if this is the Schürmann from Frankfurt, then it was founded by Ludwig Erhard Schürmann (b. 1809, d. 1866) in 1836. Later the firm was called Ed. Schürmann & Co. Still active in the 1930ies. I never saw the 800 on pieces before 1884, so I am a little sceptical about the 1881 mentioned. The (unidentified) M is probably the original maker, Schürmann just the retailer. Best wishes, Bahner

[jackk]

Thank you Bahner, I tend to believe this piece is from 1881 because there is an inscribed writing to commemorate a wedding that has happened in Frankfurt, and a date 1881. However, from my research I found that this actual wedding took place in the 17th century so this inscription must be just commemorating that wedding from the past for some other occasion.
Also, I have been more observing lately when looking at german silver. Just few days ago, I found a silver jardinière with a glass lining. Sure enough, there was an 800M mark. I guess the silver dealer I talked to a few days ago, was right about using 800M marks for silver pieces that had a glass part.
Also, I do not think that this piece was made by someone else. It's style resembles the style of three other examples of Schurmann work that I have found.
There must be somewhere in the smart books information about 800M mark, I just do not have that much literature on German silver.
Anyway, thank you. I will still try to dig in more info. I will post my findings.
Jack

[admin]

Hi Jack,
Came across a pair of silver beakers yesterday, looked to be German and to date around 1890/95, gilt interiors with no sign of having had glass inserts. The marks were dead center on the bottoms, the mark that the 800M is stamped over may be another mark, but I believe it is the centerpunch.

Regards, Tom

[jackk]

There goes my theory. :) I didn't have time to search for more info lately.

[admin]

It just realized that I have seen the "M" following the standard number on a few pieces of Belgian silver. There are different formats, but I've definitely seen it stamped incuse, as in both of the above examples. Seemingly, it would stand for "mil" and translate as 800/1000. Perhaps Schurmann imported from Belgium?

Regards, Tom

[Dwaitha]

This mark is for Memmert Gustav - Berlin
silverware maker / silberwarenfabrik active c.1890-1930

[Bahner]

Hello, Memmert is VERY unlikely. The M appears in combination with so many different maker*s marks (among them major players like Bruckmann) that is could not possibly stand for a minor maker like Memmert. It is now believed that the M stands for "millesime" to make clear that the numeral on the piece is not a production or order number but the finenness. Regards, Bahner