Meaning of a reverse F hallmark on a cup?

[dinio]

Hello,

The following hallmarks are found on a cup and, according to my documentation, the maker could be Hans Christoff Petters from Augsburg (1677-?). I am not completely sure of this identification, but it is the best guess I get when considering the maker's mark and the Augsburg city mark which is rather worn.
But does anyone know what could be the meaning of this reverse F in between those two marks?

Here are the hallmarks:


Thanks for your help.
Dinio

[dinio]

I just realized that, concerned by this reverse/inverse F, I did not send good pictures of the other marks. Here are pictures of the 3 set of hallmarks which are on the cup, its rim and the lid. They should help confirm (or infirm) the maker and origin.

on the lid:


on the rim:


and on the cup:


Hope this will help for the identification.

Thanks in advance,
Dinio

[Bahner]

Hello, looks indeed like authentic old Augsburg marks, at least the ones on the rim and on the lid. What about the one on the cup ? It looks more like a shield than like the Augsburg "pyr". The reverse F is not documented by Seeling. I believe this might be a later addition. Best wishes, Bahner

[dinio]

Hello,
Thanks Bahner for your answer. I am sorry for the late reply, but I was in vacation.

The town mark which is present on the lid, on the rim and on the base is exactly the same, but different parts of it have been erased on each of them. But they are the same 'pyr'. I tried to rebuild the mark by taking each legible part of the 3 marks and I obtain the following drawing (which is not exact but approximated) :



When I search this hallmark I have only at disposal the 'book of old silver' by Seymour Wyler in which Augsburg marks are documented.

I find only two candidate marks which are close enough. Mark #144 (documented as 1625-1630) and mark #201 (documented as 1696-1705).
But I am not fully satisfied with these marks and I hesitate.
Here are their drawings :



If I look at the maker's mark, I find two candidates in the same book. Mark #499 (documented as Hans Andreas Antoni, 1630 ?) and mark #526 (documented as Hans Peters 1672 ? or Hans Christoff Petters, 1677). Here are the drawings of these marks:


Thus we could have a good fit for both makers, and either the cup is by Antoni, 1630 or it is by Peters, 1696.

But I am not fully satisfied with these matches, and I would need confirmations for these marks (town and maker) using more specialized references.

I was also wondering when the tremolierstrich has been used for the first time in Augsburg, and if it was usual to have it at that time.

Any suggestion will be highly appreciated.

Thanks,
Dinio

[Bahner]

Hello, I believe this is the pyr as used between 1613 and 1636. The maker’s mark seems to be in an oval rather than a circle. In that case maker is H. C. Peters (also called H. C. Petrus). Active since ca. 1621, died in 1672. So this piece can be dated ca. 1621 - 1636. The Tremolierstrich was used in Augsburg since ca. 1529. Best wishes, Bahner

[byron mac donald]

Hi Dinio-

Any chance of a picture of the cup?

[dinio]

Hello,

Thanks Bahner. Could you give the references you used for this identification?
I am so confused by these Augsburgs marks as they look similar, moreover they are not drawn the same way in my references (Wyley's, Tardy's and Beuque's)! I have no information about a mark struck during the period 1613-1636. About the maker mark, you are right: it is more an oval than a circle. But for its contents, I noticed that the oval one in the Seymour's is slighly different from the one on the cup (the moon is not embracing the star, and is just over it). Is there some explanation to that?

Of course, Byron, I can join some pics. Here they are (click on them to see larger version):





The cup is 31 cm high on top of the lid (12.2 inches) and weighs 455 grams (16 ounces).

(admin edit)

Thanks
Dinio

[Theoderich]

If I look at the maker's mark, I find two candidates in the same book. Mark #499 (documented as Hans Andreas Antoni, 1630 ?) and mark #526 (documented as Hans Peters 1672 ? or Hans Christoff Petters, 1677). Here are the drawings of these marks:


Thus we could have a good fit for both makers, and either the cup is by Antoni, 1630 or it is by Peters, 1696.Thanks,
Dinio

I think this is the mark of Anthoni


and this of Peters