Augsburg dish.

[Wolfend]

Please help.

Augsburg silver dish.
What's the other hallmark?
The makers marks BJ?
When was it made?
I would also be interested in engraving.
JVDICVM CAIXXI
Thanks!

[AG2012]

Hi,
Hanau pseudomarks; Neresheimer; see npr. mark on the right. Pseudo Austrian Repunze mark, regularly seen on Neresheimer.
https://www.925-1000.com/Fgerman_hanau_marks_01.html
Regards

[Joerg]

Judicum is the book of Judges in the bible. Samson is fighting the lion. See here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson

Regards
Jörg

[Wolfend]

Hi,
Hanau pseudomarks; Neresheimer; see npr. mark on the right. Pseudo Austrian Repunze mark, regularly seen on Neresheimer.
https://www.925-1000.com/Fgerman_hanau_marks_01.html
Regards

Thank You!

[legrandmogol]

It's beautiful. is it something you acquired recently?

[Wolfend]

It's beautiful. is it something you acquired recently?

Thanks.
I bought it in Vienna today.

[legrandmogol]

Well, I am going to be the dissenting opinion here but I believe it is old. I can't make out the makers mark but the Augsburg mark looks good. The style of the dish also looks correct for 1660-1720 era. I don't have it in hand so I can't be 100% certain but if I saw it I would have snatched it up.

[AG2012]

The freistempel was used in 1809/10 for objects exempted to be delivered to the redempion offices.
It is well documented Neresheimer pseudo mark; always with letter N to the let.
Another example of Neresheimer set of marks bellow;``freistempel`` far left (letter N again !),with partially struck pseudo Augsburg on the right.
Regards

[Wolfend]

The freistempel was used in 1809/10 for objects exempted to be delivered to the redempion offices.
It is well documented Neresheimer pseudo mark; always with letter N to the let.
Another example of Neresheimer set of marks bellow;``freistempel`` far left (letter N again !),with partially struck pseudo Augsburg on the right.
Regards

so beautifully engraved, partly gilded.
I have never seen a Hanau bowl of this quality.

[oel]

I agree, the Augsburg, to me looks correct for around 1695 ( Marc Rosenberg). As far as I can see, Neresheimer has not used this particular type of Augsburg mark. Indeed a rare find.


Peter.


Source; Marc Rosenberg Der Goldschmiede Merkzeichen erster band/Deutschland Augsburg

[AG2012]

One more example:

[oel]

Yes, Ag2012 is right again, I found a similar dish made, indeed by Neresheimer:


DISQUE AVEC LE SPECTACLE DU COMBAT DE SAMSON AVEC LE LION Hanau, Neresheimer & Sons, fin du XIXe s. Argent, ciselé. D. 16,4 cm, 134 g. Poinçonné avec les marques du fabricant. Dans le miroir, la scène du combat de Samson avec le lion devant une vue de la ville en arrière-plan. Bordure décorée de rocailles.
DISC WITH THE SHOW OF SAMSON'S FIGHT WITH THE LION Hanau, Neresheimer & Sons, late 19th century. Silver, chased. D. 16.4 cm, 134 g. Hallmarked with maker's marks. In the mirror, the scene of Samson's fight with the lion in front of a view of the city in the background. Border decorated with seed beads

Again it proves to me, the high quality of the silver items produced in the workshop of Neresheimer. And how easily those pseudo marks put me on the wrong track.

cheers,

Peter

[Wolfend]

Yes, Ag2012 is right again, I found a similar dish made, indeed by Neresheimer:


DISQUE AVEC LE SPECTACLE DU COMBAT DE SAMSON AVEC LE LION Hanau, Neresheimer & Sons, fin du XIXe s. Argent, ciselé. D. 16,4 cm, 134 g. Poinçonné avec les marques du fabricant. Dans le miroir, la scène du combat de Samson avec le lion devant une vue de la ville en arrière-plan. Bordure décorée de rocailles.
DISC WITH THE SHOW OF SAMSON'S FIGHT WITH THE LION Hanau, Neresheimer & Sons, late 19th century. Silver, chased. D. 16.4 cm, 134 g. Hallmarked with maker's marks. In the mirror, the scene of Samson's fight with the lion in front of a view of the city in the background. Border decorated with seed beads

Again it proves to me, the high quality of the silver items produced in the workshop of Neresheimer. And how easily those pseudo marks put me on the wrong track.

cheers,

Peter

It's the same:)

[Wolfend]

Hi.
I also found makers inside.

[AG2012]

Not a maker, bottom image shows again notstempel-frei mark (upside down) used by Neresheimer, as well as pseudo Augsburg.
There is a gap in town assay offices code letters: M was for Munkács, but there is no N town mark. V was for Venezia/Venedig (1805-1810).
Letter N appears later as N1 for Split/Spalato (1867-1872) and N2 or Dubrovnik/Ragusa (Croatia), both extremely rare.
It takes decades to give up Renaissance silver of Augsburg or Nuremberg silver easily found.
I was disappointed many times with Hanau silver.

Regards

[legrandmogol]

It looks to me that that is not a similar dish but the exact same one. I see it was auctioned on Drouot a year ago. If they are indeed different dishes than yes, they are probably Hanau but even hand crafted Hanau pieces will not be exactly the same. Also none of the Hanau marks I have seen are dead ringers for these and it is very possible the auction house simply got it wrong. I am prepared to be proven wrong but have not seen any real evidence that I am. I would consider asking an auction house that specializes in German silver like Lempertz. If you can a get couple of different angled picturess of the makers mark, (not the Augsburg city mark or later tax mark) it would help. Also if Theoderich took look it would help, he has the largest collection of Hanau mark pictures I have ever seen.
As for not be able to find old pieces of Augsburg or other German silver hiding in plain sight, well thats not true. One of my favorite things about old European silver is that outside of their countries of origin, they usually go unnoticed and unloved. People don't have the time or the inclination to research it or even know where to begin. If you don't know much about early German, Dutch, Italian, etc silver it is really easy to pass it over as the markings are quite diverse.

[AG2012]

Hopeless; now auction house is wrong!
Austrian Repunze tax exemption seen here is well documented Neresheimer mark.
Before going deeper into the subject, tell us what`s the town letter N used in 1809.
As far as I am concerned, the issue ends here; just another example of wishful thinking regarding Hanau silver.
Regards

[Wolfend]

It looks to me that that is not a similar dish but the exact same one. I see it was auctioned on Drouot a year ago. If they are indeed different dishes than yes, they are probably Hanau but even hand crafted Hanau pieces will not be exactly the same. Also none of the Hanau marks I have seen are dead ringers for these and it is very possible the auction house simply got it wrong. I am prepared to be proven wrong but have not seen any real evidence that I am. I would consider asking an auction house that specializes in German silver like Lempertz. If you can a get couple of different angled picturess of the makers mark, (not the Augsburg city mark or later tax mark) it would help. Also if Theoderich took look it would help, he has the largest collection of Hanau mark pictures I have ever seen.
As for not be able to find old pieces of Augsburg or other German silver hiding in plain sight, well thats not true. One of my favorite things about old European silver is that outside of their countries of origin, they usually go unnoticed and unloved. People don't have the time or the inclination to research it or even know where to begin. If you don't know much about early German, Dutch, Italian, etc silver it is really easy to pass it over as the markings are quite diverse.

Thanks!
I'm taking better photos. If you really Hanau silver, then rare beautiful!
Regards.
Gábor

[legrandmogol]

Auction houses get things wrong. Sometimes they don't even have silver experts on staff. I have followed Drouot via their app for a few years and they often get Non-French silver identifications wrong. Just like Bukowskis often gets anything but Scandanavian silver wrong. I recently made a friend in Sweden who knows they don't even currently have a Silver expert on staff but they're still listing silver. Many of the English auctions I follow simply list anything that's not English as 'Continental'.
As for the science of Hanau marks, I think you forget that there is no science of Hanau marks. Very little is recorded about them and only so much more is known. Plus, all of the marks you have shown do not exactly match these marks. Just because you are not familiar with the real thing does not mean these are not the real thing.
This piece looks right to me and I won't be bullied out of my opinion by AG, and yes your last message was quite hostile. Last time we disagreed I was proven correct if you have already forgotten. So stop taking this personally and start looking at these pieces analytically. This forum should be a safe place for debate.

[oel]

Hi Gábor,

If I understand it correctly you bought this dish at auction, and the description of the auction house stated; made by Neresheimer?


Peter.