An antique (?) tankard

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
amena
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An antique (?) tankard

Postby amena » Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:23 am

Hello everyone
I have often heard "If you don't know what you are buying, don't buy!" and so I did; now I ask for advice.
Yesterday I saw a beautiful tankard that looks ancient and northern European, but that has marks that I can't decipher.
It's not really cheap and, as the seller says, it was found together with another tankard that looks old, but in fact I saw that it has the Swedish dateletter of 1942 (Q8).
Below are some photos, which are not that great, but it is the best I could do with very little light.
Image

Image

Image

All information will be welcome
Thanks for attention
Amena

Qrt.S
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Re: An antique (?) tankard

Postby Qrt.S » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:42 am

Aye, aye, aye Amena, you should follow the good advice not to buy if don't know... >:-> ! However, maybe you are lucky because I have the answer...maybe. First of all, Sweden and Finland can we can eliminate because the the marking is quite insufficient for those countries. In Norway nothing alike. I have, anyway, found a Swede with the initials IAS. He is Johan Adolf Seseman, 1819-1846-, but for the above mentioned reason, I don't think it is him. But I see two IAS marks and that leads me to Denmark. Guess what, there we have in Kerteminde a Johan Andreas Steen, born 1790, master 15.1.1821 and deceased 1864. I believe it is him, but let's wait for Hose to pop in and to confirm my assumption....maybe he will...

Hose_dk
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Re: An antique (?) tankard

Postby Hose_dk » Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:01 pm

i have not consulted any books.
My guess is definitely Germany. Due to the zig zag line - I have never seen that in Denmark. But very common in Germany.
The look of item also scream Germany to me.

AG2012
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Re: An antique (?) tankard

Postby AG2012 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:29 pm

Hi,
We are in the realm of forensic research now; insufficient marks, tremolierstich, the style etc.
Fortunately, modern electronic testing available nowadays can shed some light.
Let`s determine exact composition of the alloy.Very old silver had completely different composition of trace elements than 19th and 20th century silver (more gold, but also impurities due to less sophisticated metallurgy).Besides, whatever silver content, it can be easily calculated in e.g.Loths and narrow the search.
Regards

Hose_dk
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Re: An antique (?) tankard

Postby Hose_dk » Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:52 am

12 for germany
13,5 for denmark

Less than 12 is also possible for germany,
13,5 is mandatory for denmark 13,3 for Norway.
11 or less lod in Denmark must have 11 lod mark or whatever lod. I have one 7 lod spoon, clearly marked.

amena
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Re: An antique (?) tankard

Postby amena » Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:06 am

Thank you all for your input.
I could think of doing an electronic test if the tankard was mine, but it is unthinkable for a dealer to take the test on demand.
The seller, as often happens to the Parma's "Mercante in fiera", says: I do not know much, I have just found this object and I have not had time to do research. This is the item, this is the price, if you like it you buy it. That is.
After reading the various answers, this consideration came to mind
There is a tremolierstich with the same mark before and at the end.
The zigzag line should be made by a assayer.
Does it make sense that the assayer puts his mark at the beginning and end of the tremolierstich and there are no other marks? At least the silversmith's one.
Something seems wrong to me, so I prefer not to buy, also because the price would be justified only for a piece of high age.
Best
Amena

legrandmogol
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Re: An antique (?) tankard

Postby legrandmogol » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:48 am

First and most importantly, this is exact tankard was sold at Hampel Fine Auctions as a "17th-century German silver stein". Unfortunately, I cannot find the archive for this item to get more details information.
Here are my thoughts on it. Usually large well made pieces of Hanau silver that are designed to look "ancient" use strange and confusing pseudo marks that are mostly designed to look like guild and city marks. The fakers usually use very close guild marks and then make blurry makers marks that no can ever figure out or obvious famous makers marks. The hallmarks on this piece don't really match up with the kind of marks fakers usually use. I think the piece is probably Germanic in origin but could either be very old or mid 19th century and made in the old style by customer request.

amena
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Re: An antique (?) tankard

Postby amena » Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:52 am

Hi legrandmogol
I found the tankard on the auction site you indicated. It's really the same. IAS is indicated as master's mark.
But I wonder: how can there be the master's mark on the sides of the tremolierstich? what meaning can it have?
Has anyone found a similar punching at other times?

Hose_dk
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Re: An antique (?) tankard

Postby Hose_dk » Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:11 pm

regarding the 2 marks at either end. Pay no attension to this. That does not mean either old or new.
In my opinnion its to good to be true. i.e. historisismus and around 120 to 150 years old.

legrandmogol
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Re: An antique (?) tankard

Postby legrandmogol » Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:33 pm

If the one at the auction is merely identical to the one for sale then they are both fakes. But if they are the exact same tankard I would try to contact the auction house and check their credentials. They seem to be pretty good at distinguishing genuine pieces from copies. It is easy to call it a fake but ultimately as only Amena can actually hold it, all any of us can do is speculate. Based on what little I can see, I think it is real but possibly early 18th rather than 17th century as the mark doesn't strike me as 17th century in style.

amena
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Re: An antique (?) tankard

Postby amena » Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:35 am

The two photos are taken from a different perspective, but I would say that it is the same tankard
Image

Qrt.S
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Re: An antique (?) tankard

Postby Qrt.S » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:04 am

Here is a picture of an almost similar tankard. It is made in Germany in early 17th century by Nicolaus Weiss from Lübeck. Duly marked.
Image
Due to the odd marking on Amena's tankard, could it be a good pastiche?
(Btw. Lübeck is not så far from Denmark.)

legrandmogol
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Re: An antique (?) tankard

Postby legrandmogol » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:40 am

Well I finally found the original listing at Hampel but in my search through their years of previous auctions, I would say it is safe to say they know their stuff especially regarding early German Silver. So I would safely say this is indeed a late 17th/early 18th-century German tankard. I don't think its a pastiche, I think it's just the style of the times

Qrt.S
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Re: An antique (?) tankard

Postby Qrt.S » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:56 am

@legrandmogul
Presumable you mean early 17th century (not late). Weiss working period was 1613-1631. The tankard's style is baroque, early 17th - mid 18th century.

legrandmogol
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Re: An antique (?) tankard

Postby legrandmogol » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:04 pm

no, I mean late Just based on the maker mark I don't think its early 17th century but it could be. Most of the similar tankards I found were also late 17th century. If you have a chance I highly recommend going through Hampel's archives of old auction catalogs. There were lots of wonderful examples of German 17th-century silver.


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