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16C Frankfurt? Full name in Rosenberg?

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:05 pm
by bezalel
I am trying to verify these hallmarks found on a book binding. It was sold as "16th century Frankfurt A.M. mark, and makers mark KH found in Rosenberg 3, No 2030". I looked in the Tardy guide and the first mark looks more like the 1624 mark from Aix-la-Chapelle than from Frankfurt. Also I do not have Rosenberg, can someone tell me if the full name of "KH" is listed in Rosenberg? Thoughts on the "Frankfurt" mark? Thank you everyone.

Re: 16C Frankfurt? Full name in Rosenberg?

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:16 pm
by dognose
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Re: 16C Frankfurt? Full name in Rosenberg?

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:19 pm
by bezalel
Image
Image

Re: 16C Frankfurt? Full name in Rosenberg?

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:37 pm
by Bahner
Hello, Rosenberg is not aware of the name of the goldsmith, he is not even sure whether he is from Frankfurt or Aachen. Rosenberg is online, see here

http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit ... /1/082.jpg

In 1992 the Franfurt based "Museum fuer Kunsthandwerk" published a catalogue of its silver collection. Under the catalogue number 2 it lists a tankard with a set of two marks very much like the two on this binding. The name of the maker was still unknown in 1992, almost 70 years after Rosenberg, and probably still is.

Do the Hebrew inscriptions on the binding give a hint ? And was the book (my guess: a bible) published in Frankfurt ?

Regards, Bahner

Re: 16C Frankfurt? Full name in Rosenberg?

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:43 pm
by Theoderich
lets have a look into the book - there will be a page with a date

Re: 16C Frankfurt? Full name in Rosenberg?

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:38 pm
by bezalel
Hi everyone. Thanks for your help so far. The book inside is a Hebrew prayer book from Venice, 1587. So now that I can't find anything about KH, does anyone have an opinion if the first mark is actually Frankfurt A.M.?

Re: 16C Frankfurt? Full name in Rosenberg?

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:40 pm
by bezalel
Regarding the inscriptions --- no help. This binding appears to have numerous replaced silver mounts, and the plaques with the Hebrew are later additions. It's a real mess, but I at least want to get the marks down.

Re: 16C Frankfurt? Full name in Rosenberg?

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:44 pm
by bezalel
Bahner can you tell me the name of the catalogue that features the two marks on the tankard? What does that catalogue state as far as age and origin for those marks?

Re: 16C Frankfurt? Full name in Rosenberg?

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:00 pm
by Theoderich
there are 2 objekts in Rosenberg Nr. 2030
1: Serpentinsteinpokal mit ornamentierter Fassung
2: Ziervergold. Spitzbecher mit Bandwerk-Katuschen und gesetzten Löwenköpfen. Widmungsinschrift v.1589

Re: 16C Frankfurt? Full name in Rosenberg?

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:29 am
by Bahner
Hello,

the title is "´Hildegard Hoos: Profanes Silber 16.-20. Jahrhundert". Museum fuer Kunsthandwerk. Frankfurt am Main.1992. ISBN 3-88270-057-2.

Quote: "Fassung: Aachen oder Frankfurt ? Mitte 16. Jahrhundert (R3 17 oder 1998 ?). Meistermarke KH (ligiert) im Wappenschild (R3 32 oder 2030 ?)"

Regards

Bahner

.

Re: 16C Frankfurt? Full name in Rosenberg?

Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:43 am
by bezalel
Thank you both for your help!

Re: 16C Frankfurt? Full name in Rosenberg?

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:05 pm
by Theoderich
Theoderich wrote:
2: Ziervergold. Spitzbecher mit Bandwerk-Katuschen und gesetzten Löwenköpfen. Widmungsinschrift v.1589


I have seen this 2nd object in Rosenberg on
sothebys 17 MAY 2011, Lot 247

description of sothebys:
"A GERMAN PARCEL-GILT SILVER CUP, PROBABLY HANS KNORR, FRANKFURT A.M., CIRCA 1589"

Re: 16C Frankfurt? Full name in Rosenberg?

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:59 pm
by Aguest
Could the silver loop at the top once held a chain for a silver "pointer," or a "Yad," which was used during the reading of the prayer book? I would assume the pointer would have bore the same hallmarks as the book, but that is just an assumption.

Re: 16C Frankfurt? Full name in Rosenberg?

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:18 pm
by Theoderich
Hans Knorr (*9.12.1546)
oo 25.10.1574
+28.9.1596

ref. W.Scheffler, Goldschmiede Hessens, S.127, no 35

Re: 16C Frankfurt? Full name in Rosenberg?

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:27 pm
by niceguy1
bezalel wrote:It's a real mess

A proper mess indeed, somehow the whole thing don't look too kosher to me.

Re: 16C Frankfurt? Full name in Rosenberg?

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:46 am
by Theoderich
niceguy1 wrote:
bezalel wrote:It's a real mess

A proper mess indeed, somehow the whole thing don't look too kosher to me.


I am not sure about the whole thing, but I think the leon head is typical for him
ref to sothebys
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