Is this a spoon from Hanau?

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Joerg
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Is this a spoon from Hanau?

Postby Joerg » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:00 pm

Dear friends

ist this a spoon from Hanau? I did not find an exact match for the town mark, but it looks similar. And who is the maker? Is the "E" a date letter?
Thank you for your suggestions.

Jörg

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Theoderich
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Re: Is this a spoon from Hanau?

Postby Theoderich » Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:17 pm

probably SAS VAN GENT (NL)
ref: Helmut Seling, Europäische Stadtmarken, ... p.47
E.Voet Jr., Nederlandse Goud-en Zilvermerken

Joerg
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Re: Is this a spoon from Hanau?

Postby Joerg » Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:53 pm

Hi Theo

I was waiting for your reply, thank you. I was rather sure it is German, but you point to the Netherlands. This makes the "E" as a date letter possible.
Do you have any guess on the date?
Again, thank you very much.

Trev, can you move my post to the Dutch section?

Regards

Jörg

oel
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Re: Is this a spoon from Hanau?

Postby oel » Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:34 am

Hi Jörg,

Theo is right, silver guild town mark of Sas van Gent used 18th century. The only known silver town mark of Sas van Gent, a rare mark not often found. Sas van Gent: Sluice of Ghent hence the lion behind a sluice. The Ghent-Terneuzen Canal passes through Sas van Gent, and at that point there was a lock in the canal.
Ghent is a city and a municipality located in the Flemish Region of Belgium. It is the capital and largest city of the East Flanders province. The city started as a settlement at the confluence of the Rivers Scheldt and Leie and in the late Middle Ages became one of the largest and richest cities of northern Europe with some 50,000 people in 1300. Today it is a busy city with a port and a university.
I am afraid that is all I can say. I doubt if we can dig up more information and at the moment no access to my library until the 24th of June.

Best,

Peter

Joerg
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Re: Is this a spoon from Hanau?

Postby Joerg » Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:27 pm

Dear both, thank you again.
I am surprised the mark is rare. I will honour the spoon.

Kind regards

Jörg

oel
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Re: Is this a spoon from Hanau?

Postby oel » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:07 am

Image

Image
Hanau style (pseudo) mark or unknown city mark shown in Helmut Seling, Europäische Stadtmarken, ... p.47
E.Voet Jr., Nederlandse Goud-en Zilvermerken van Voet (1992)


Hi Jörg & Theo,


The city of Sas van Gent never had a silver guild and/or town mark.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sas_van_Gent

We know, Hanau (pseudo) marks can fool us. Mr. Elias Voet jr. (1868-1940), our foremost Dutch silver expert, jeweler and author of books about Dutch gold & silver guilds, town marks, (hall) marks and maker’s marks, he unfortunately contributed this Hanau style (pseudo) or unknown town mark to the town of Sas van Gent. This mistake has been corrected in the latest edition (2014) of the book; Goud- en zilvermerken van Voet' by Mr. L.B. Gans, second edition; Originally the book "Goud- en zilvermerken van Voet" is a rare reference, commonly used for the determination of origin of antique silver and gold objects in the Netherlands. The first edition of the book "Goud- en zilvermerken van Voet" contains the at that time known Dutch town (hall)marks, other marks with descriptions and images; (hall)marks from the 15th century- onwards, used in the Netherlands. Indexed on city, with many examples of (hall)marks and year letters. The employees of Premsela & Hamburger have worked intensively together with professionals from different disciplines to edit and improve the second edition of "Goud- en zilvermerken van Voet". The book has been rewritten from scratch; all information has been reviewed with the science of our time. Equipped with the latest discoveries in the field of (hall)marks and conclusions. The second edition of "Goud- en zilvermerken van Voet" is even richer illustrated and is supplemented with interesting European (hall)marks and backgrounds.

Back to our German spoon with a Hanau style (pseudo) mark.
If we look carefully at the Hanau style (pseudo) town mark we see; shield left corner the number 1 and at the right corner the number 3 for 13 lot, a typical German standard. The "Hanau" lion in a chevron, and not the doors of a sluice. Last but not least, the position of the marks are more typical for Germany, struck top handle, and not bottom struck (stem) as seen on Dutch 18th century spoons.
NB: to me the presence of a maker's mark and the capital letter E, which could by an assayer's identification (year) letter, makes it less likely to be pseudo and we could look at an unknown (German) city mark.


Peter.


Gratitude
Archivist city of Terneuzen & Sas van Gent; L.B. Gans, Premsela & Hamburger

Theoderich
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Re: Is this a spoon from Hanau?

Postby Theoderich » Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:25 pm

yes - The Hallmark would fit more to Germany . But I do not think it is Hanau .

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Re: Is this a spoon from Hanau?

Postby Theoderich » Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:14 am

Theoderich wrote:yes - The Hallmark would fit more to Germany . But I do not think it is Hanau .


Now I think it is Hanau.

There is a spoon of Hanau Neustadt ca. 1790.
The marks are also on top of spoon.
Image

But I think this is another spoon of the maker [HM] in Haunau.
There are two letters: AH means Altstadt-Hanau.
Image

But I do not know the maker. There are some Goldsmith in the Scheffler-book.

HM
312 Wilhelm Heinemann (Neustadt) oo1827 ->to late
308b Martin Hartmann (Altstadt) master ca.1826 ->to late
284a Johann Herrmann (Neustadt) ca. 1810? ->to late
284 Andreas Hellmuth (Neustadt) oo1818 ->to late
279 Johann Daniel Heinemann (Neustadt) oo1817 ->to late
277c Philipp Heinrich Daniel Hartmann (Neustadt) master ca. 1810 ->to late
263 Johann Chirstian Peter Möller (Neustadt) oo1812 ->to late
255B Chretien Henri Meyer (*1759) Bijoutier
246b Louis Cuillaume Hestermann (*1749) Bijouteriefabrikant
244b Johannes Meerbott (Neustadt),*1771
236 Johann Peter Mausenhold, (Neustadt), (*1767)
222b Jean Cretien Müller *1786, Goldstecher
203 Johann Conrad Hennemann, Goldarbeiter (Neustadt) oo1776
189a Johann Henrich Hausmann, Goldarbeiter (Neustadt) oo1773
180 Johann Georg Murmann, Graveur & Goldarbeiter (Neustadt) (*1740, oo1768)
166 Hermann Hofmann, Goldarbeiter (Neustadt), Master ca. 1754.
156 Johann David Holtzmüller, master ca. 1740
155b ?? Morin (Neustadt), ca. 1737
146a Johann Henrich Hennemann (*ca.1707) master ca. 1743.

oel
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Re: Is this a spoon from Hanau?

Postby oel » Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:58 am

Theo, thank you very much for the update.

Peter.

Theoderich
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Re: Is this a spoon from Hanau?

Postby Theoderich » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:19 pm

oel wrote:Theo, thank you very much for the update.

Peter.


there is a better image of spoon Image

is in the book of Mr. Elias Voet jr. about the mark
Image
a makers mark and/of yearsletter mentioned?

oel
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Re: Is this a spoon from Hanau?

Postby oel » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:13 pm

In L.B. Gans Goud-en en zilvermerken van Voet published in 1992 for Sas van Gent only the image, as mentioned above is shown for 18th century. No year letters, no makers marks. In the newest edition Sas van Gent is not mentioned.

Peter.


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