I need help

[stecci]

Seeking the maker and the city of two major works.
The cross is dated (1618). The bust was made around 1620.

I am grateful for every tip.

Stecci

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz29 ... 012102.jpg
http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz29 ... 012013.jpg
http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz293/stecci/GL2.jpg
http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz29 ... /BzGL1.jpg
http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz293/stecci/GL1.jpg

[Francais]

I think you need to look for more marks. The two marks in GL2 look like a maker's mark GL conjoined and the other could be the top of an Augsburg mark from the first half of the 17th c., but it is too poorly struck to be sure. Then in pictures ending in GL1 you have the same maker's mark but some other town mark. The only thing that I can think of to explain it, would be the silversmith moved. The maker's mark is not shown in Rosenberg, nor Seling. I would suggest taking more pictures, of the engraving, etc. and you might imbed them in the posting. I also have to say the GL2 marks look a bit odd, so do you have any provenance.
Maurice

[stecci]

Thank you Maurice

The Hallmark is similar to some of Zug (Switzerland), Ulm (Germany) and Münster (Germany). In all three cities, however, no goldsmith is known, has the initials "GL" used. All specialists I have ever asked, closing the three cities as origin.

The two items are certainly authentic and from the period 1618 (cross) and ca 1620 bust.
They belong in an old monastery. There lived exclusively aristocratic women from southern Germany.

Stecci

[Francais]

I saw that Theo gave it as tentatively Muenster, but I don't see enough of the mark to come to the same conclusion.
I would still take a lot of pictures. Time after time on this site, the questioner overlooks something important, that comes out after some more pictures are posted.
Maurice

[Theoderich]

I think both hallmark for the same.
If you look closely, you can see under the bar left a small drop in both hallmark.
Now you can at the glodenen brand recognize the lower part very well and when the silver mark the upper part, so that we get an idea of the whole hallmark.
_____________
----.-o-----------

[oel]

Could the maker’s mark be G with an upside down silversmiths’ hammer conjoined?


Oel.

[stecci]

The maker's mark is with the G.
http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz293/stecci/GL1.jpg

Stecci

[oel]

Hi Stecci,

Yes, looking at your image it appears to me like being; G with an upside down silversmiths’ hammer conjoined.


Oel.

[Francais]

I don't think it is a hammer, I don't think that sort of statement was used until the arts and crafts period, at least not commonly. Just to check I searched Theo's site, and came up mostly with Freiberg, with crossed hammers, I presume the guild or town arms.
There may be exceptions, but I don't think it was common.
I do se what Theo is saying, and he could be right, but like him I am a bit tentative about the attribution.
So this might be a long shot, but when I saw the top of the one mark and thought it was perhaps a Augsburg mark poorly struck. So I looked for a maker's mark that fit. There is a GL conjoined which looks quite similar, except of course for the cartouche, which is quite odd for the period.
His name was Gregor Leider born in Klagenfurt Austria in 1590, but doesn't turn up in Augsburg until much later. He was catholic and made religious items. Quite honestly reading German is not my strongest point, and I may be missing something on the biography in Seling. I will send a copy to Theo, and see if he can find anything pertinent. It might help to know the name of the convent in Southern Germany, but it does seem to fit geographically better than Munster.
Maurice

[stecci]

Dear Maurice

The monastery is in Switzerland (Schänis). But it was a foundation of the South German nobility. All nuns came from noble families of southern Germany.
For this reason, I believe that it is a work from southern Germany. In Switzerland, I do not know any city to which the Hallmark would fit. And I know the Swiss goldsmith works pretty well.

Stecci

[Francais]

Well that makes sense, as the South was more likely to be Catholic in 1620. Also it doesn't seem to make much sense to order a piece of silver from Munster, even though by then it was Catholic again.
Gregor Leider did not turn up in Augsburg until 1624, by then he would have been 34 years old, if Seling is right and he was born in 1590, rather late to be accepted as a master So it seems possible he was working somewhere else before his arrival, and after his acceptance in the Augsburg guild he changed his mark a bit. I Googled the name and really could find nothing pertinent in either German or English.
I really don't see much similarity of the mark to either Zug or Ulm, and the latter wasn't a likely candidate considering its history.
One more question, was there anything besides the date on either piece, meaning did it say "in memoriam 1618" or any coat of arms?
Maurice

[Francais]

Here is an interesting article about silversmiths during the war, mentioning Leider:
http://www.lwl.org/westfaelische-geschi ... =tab_texte
Maurice

[stecci]

It's like this: The old church treasury was completely destroyed by fire in 1610. In the following years, it was built by the abbesses again.
On the cross, the year number is below an engraving.

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz29 ... 012021.jpg

The bust is a coat of arms of the abbess (you bought the object).

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz29 ... G_0201.jpg

The name of the abbess is narrated in the literature: "Anna von Bellheim zu Baumgarten"
On the objects of a different notation is over provides:
"Anna von Bälheim" on a chalice. "von Beihaim" on the bust. Which form of the name is correct, I can not say.

There have been handed down from the crest different variants:

When painting (copy of 1900)

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz29 ... lheim1.jpg


On a chalice

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz29 ... G_0141.jpg

and the third variant, which at the bust

[Francais]

"you bought the object" did not translate well. I don't know what it means. I was reading another post and I wonder if it wouldn't be allowed by the administration to allow postings in two languages, for instance in this case I seem to read German better than the translating program.

I am at a bit of an impasse. I think you need to go to the Heraldik site and post the two wappen, and see if they can help.
The one with the crowns, is evidently that of the abbess, similar to a later one I found by searching " wappen abtissin Schanis" in google images. The other with the bears is evidently the Bellheim coat of arms. The problem is where did Anna come from.
If you google "von Bellheim zu Baumgarten" you get 6 references to her, but I could not find out which Baumgarten they were talking about. You might double check and read them.
Also http://books.google.com/books?id=VD5SAA ... im&f=false
which I had trouble reading, as it is old German spelling. It is odd that even I can spell German better than the engraver here:
http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz29 ... G_0201.jpg
The point being unless we find out where Leider was working your best path is to find out where Anna came from. It could of course be Baumgarten in the North of Germany, but that doesn't fit well with the South German nature of the convent. There was at least one Baumgarten in Austria. It seems likely that if she didn't order the items from the closest silversmith she might have had it made in her home town.
Maurice

[Francais]

This is a poor picture of a piece by Leider evidently 10 years later in Switzerland a little over 100 km from Schanis. How about a volunteer who is interested who can read old Swiss German. I can supply some texts that need translating. Or of course we can alsoforget the whole thing. http://www.pinterest.com/pin/99712579222213819/
Maurice

[stecci]

You can send me the texts. I can read it well. And you try to translate them.

stecci

[Francais]

My point is a simple one. If the label is correct this is a major piece of church silver made in 1627 for a church not far from Schanis. If Leider was born in 1690 he was 34 when he made his masterpiece in 1624 in Augsburg, and 3 years later or less received a commission to produce this piece for a Swiss client. He was obviously a working silversmith somewhere, probably Southern Germany or Austria, before Augsburg. I hate to make categorical statements but I have never heard of a silversmith starting his profession at 34 years old, nor would a new young inexperienced silversmith get a major commission less than three years after being accepted by the guild. There are of course always other possibilities, perhaps his father was a silversmith and used a similar mark, or that Seling is wrong about his birth date. In any case the similarity of this mark to his maker's mark in Augsburg demands as much research or attention as a similarity of two poorly struck town marks to Munster. I'll even go with the possibility he went to Munster first, although I can see no reason for it.
Maurice