A sugar bowl

[amena]

I bought this sugar bowl. It looks handmade and has 5 marks on the bottom as you can see in the photos. On the lidthere is only the first mark on the left. These marks have made me think that the object is German or Central European, but I could not find an exact match.
Any help would be greatly appreciated
Amena

[Francais]

I don't recognize the marks, if you post pictures of the inside, we could probably tell you what I already suspect.
It doesn't look like real repoussee work, meaning the inside is not a reverse of the outside. If the inside is smoother, then you should look for seams. If it is not real repoussee work then you have a later piece. While the marks are not shown in the Hanau section, they look like fantasy ones to me.
Maurice

[amena]

Hi Maurice,
thanks for your reply.
The sugar bowl is definitely not cast, but repoussè.
I took some photos of the interior with a mirror.

It’ also embossed on the parts where subsequently were welded the legs.

The noticeable difference in the two heads that are located on the opposite side, shows that it’s hand made.

There are some seams which show that the bottom has been welded.

I hope that this news will lead to some other consideration.
Regards
Amena

[Francais]

That is a real surprise, it certainly is real repoussee. Which doesn't absolutely rule out fantasy marks, but sure makes them less likely. Could I also ask for a better close up of at least the first three marks. The second mark looks like an Austro-Hungarian mark, but instead of a date on the outside and 13 on the inside, it seems to have a repetition of SR on the outside. Before I spend some time trying to find it, I would like to make sure I am seeing it right. My first impression is that perhaps the silversmith was someplace on the fringes of the empire, and simply decided to make some pseudo guarantee marks. But I may be getting ahead of myself. In any case knowing that the body is not cast makes it a lot more interesting. I presume the marks are on the bottom? It seems odd they are not visible on the inside. Is there no mark at all on the lid then?
Maurice

[amena]

This is getting interesting.
Here are the three marks enlarged.


It seems to me to read 48 in the second mark, not SR

On the lid there is only the first mark, barely visible.

You can clearly see the marks from inside, but not in the picture.

Regards
Amena

[Francais]

You're right about it getting interesting, but I don't think I can solve this. The B mark looks like something vaguely similar to Augsburg.
It is cut decently enough. But of course it is not Augsburg. The wheel mark looks like an Austro-Hungarian mark, but mostly does not follow the rules for those marks. The top letters look like LAT or maybe LATV to me, although I could be wrong. Then on the left 4 and the right 8. It is very crudely cut. The maker's mark looks like SR, and is extremely poorly cut. First I will tell you where I looked. I went to Theo Hecker's excellent site.
None of the marks are shown, not the B wheel or SR mark. I also checked Rosenberg, no luck there. So I am just guessing now, and going a bit out on a limb. The marks look so poorly cut, I think they were done by the silversmith himself, probably meaning he was located too far from a major city, which would have die cutters. He was obviously copying both German and Austrian empire marks, so he couldn't be in either country as then they would be forgeries. But that LAT does make me think about Latvia, a German influenced country, out of the empires. Also 48 might be the year he cut the die. I am not expert in Latvian silver and most of what I have had from there was earlier, or very different in style. If I am right, your chances of identifying these marks is about nil, there is at least one person who follows these posts sometimes, the next time I correspond with him, I will ask him to take a look.
Sorry,
Maurice

[amena]

Hello Maurice,
First of all, thanks for spending your time in this research, but not always searches are successful. Your considerations, however, have been very interesting for me.
I agree completely about the roughness of the punches, perhaps made on purpose. Should add that all five brands seem struck at the same time, as they are well centered on the bottom of the sugarbowl.
Finally, I must, unwillingly, agree that the probability of identifying these marks are virtually nil.
If the contributors of 925/1000 didn’t, I don’t know who else could.
Regards
Amena

[AG2012]

Faked and poorly made Vienna mark for 1848 and ``Augsburg`` for 1736-37.
Fortunately, those fakes are not dangerous.
Attached genuine Vienna mark for 1840.
Regards

[admin]

Hi,
Looks like a Hanau piece, suspect the marks are pseudos we've not seen before, Simon Rosenau of Bad Kissingen seems a good possibility for the maker.
http://www.925-1000.com/Fgerman_hanau_marks_01.html

Regards, Tom

[Francais]

I looked in Hanau marks for this too. But the problem is they made pieces in great abundance, as cheaply as possible, and generally had very well cut marks. So look at Rosenau's marks, very well cut. This piece was made by an able craftsmen and not one of dozens cranked out, by casting. What he couldn't do was cut a die, nor could he find a die cutter near by.
I really doubt Hanau.
Maurice

[AG2012]

Three red arrows in one of the pictures show genuine marks. Somebody wanted more lucrative piece and struck (poorly cut) marks. But who would be stupid enough to ruin old and well made silver? Makes sense only if it was marked with ``900`` or whatever and then, let’s have Old Vienna or Augsburg. My humble opinion: the box is not very old and faked marks were struck recently (have seen similar ``Vienna`` Radelpunze on ``Biedermeier`` silver).

[oel]

Hanau had able craftsmen and made some beautiful pieces. Hanau made exact copies of authentic old silver. However the increased competition eroded first profits and then quality of workmanship. Hanau became a center for mass-produced articles, which were assembled from stamped out parts and cheaply seam-soldered. Easily identified, these items are mostly what come to mind today when we speak of Hanau silver but...
For the whole story about Hanau silver please see:
http://www.silvercollection.it/dictiona ... ilver.html
http://www.ascasonline.org/articolo13.html
http://www.ascasonline.org/articolox15.html


Oel.

[amena]

I have read very carefully all the various considerations made on the sugar bowl and I should like to add my own .
The brand "wheel" is too different from the true mark Vienna to be considered a fake. No one can be misled by a fake so gross .
I also cleaned up a bit the signs of the punching on the inside , and , as you can see from the picture there is no evidence of a previous punching deleted from the subsequent one. As I have already said everything suggests that the whole series of marks have been struck at the same time .

So I think that they are pseudos marks .
As for the dating , it is very difficult for me to make a guess.
What I can say is that I saw some examples of Hanau silver and I have one. I have observed that the repoussé work is done by hand , while the casing seems to be made on a lathe or with a mold.
In this case all the box is wrought by hammer. This of course does not mean that the piece is really old , but only that it is done the old way .
Amena

[Francais]

I guess all I can say is beauty is in the eye of the beholder, or perhaps "I of the beholder".
I am quite well acquainted with Hanau silver, and have had some of their largest pieces, wine coolers, and quite a few nefs.
They may have had able silversmiths working for them, but the results I have seen are really rather sad. I prefer Helft's description of their wine cooler, which while it had a rather superior tone, got me laughing. And I owned one at the time.
A brief, and somewhat kinder translation: " This wine cooler made in quantity around 1880 have been more often exported to the USA. Despite the mediocrity of the fabrication, one understands they were able, by their royal allure, to conquer a new American clientele avid to acquire the vestiges of the glitzy reign of Louis XV. Haven't we known, chez nous, the behavior and excess of the nouveau riches?
Then in an otherwise very interesting auction a major auction house succeeded in selling one for a very nice price by saying it was mentioned in Helft.
I think the biggest problem with the sugar bowl is that it does look like a piece of Hanau silver,
but I still doubt it is one, and hope it is not one.
Maurice

[r_l_m]

Let me bring to your attention the product of the same manufacturer, but with a slightly different set of stamps. Instead of "wheel" - "Pinecone" from Augsburg.


What do you think about it?

[AG2012]

Hi,
Pseudo marks.
Hanau ? Simon Rosenau ?
But definitively pseudo Augsburg marks.
Regaeds

[r_l_m]

Hi,
Unfortunately, I do not have any additional information about the manufacturer. My opinion: they are representatives of the "antique style" of Hanau.
And do you have any information about the silver of the fineness used in the sugar bowl?
Regaeds

[amena]

Hi r_l_m
your pictures are not showing on my computer.
Can you post them again?
Thanks
Amena

[r_l_m]

Hi, amena
Unfortunately, I do not know how to upload photos directly to this site. Therefore, I will lay them out using the same algorithm as before. On my computer, the photos are displayed normally. AG2012 also sees them ...
Regaeds

[r_l_m]

P.S.
amena, what is the fineness of silver on your sugar bowl?
Thanks