Help with German tablespoons

[rat-tail]

Hi - An appeal for any details of the maker of this set of 8 large tablespoons. Look, weight and feel all say they are silver, but cannot decipher the marks.
Makers mark is presumably HESS in heavy capitals, there is a mark which could be HL120, or II120, or HL 12 O; and a mark in a diamond shaped cartouche, which to me suggest French, for 69.

Any help regarding origin and period or info about the maker appreciated
Thanks Frank

[R ingo]

Hello,
I do not know the maker, but the Form looks like made in northern Germany. The mark in a diamond shaped cartouche with the number looks like the Hamburg "concession mark", unique to Hamburg, a numerical mark in a lozenge cartouche ( www.925-1000.com/Fger_hamburg_01.html ).

Kind regards,
Ringo

[rat-tail]

Hi Ringo

Thanks for pointing me to Hamburg - the diamond lozenge definitely looks like one of the concession marks from that city.

Strange there is no city, or assay, mark. Could it be that these spoons were made after the gild dissolved, but Mr Hess, whoever he was, wanted to make sure if there was any comeback he could pass the buck onto the concessionary. Because without the gild, there would be no reason to used the concession mark. Or the spoons were marked and when they went for assay it was a case of - oh dear the assay shutters have just come down, oh well, let's finish these spoons anyway.

Could the HL or ILL mark not be L12 for 12 loth, although the silver feels like a higher grade. But then perhaps Hamburg smiths used more copper in the alloy than their counterparts elsewhere in Germany or Eastern Europe. It looks similar in style to the unidentified IF mark at the bottom of the page, which to me looks like IIT, but mine definitely IIL or HL.

Any idea who owns the gild's records so I can track Mr 69.

Regards Frank

[silverport]

Hello Frank

The here presented spoon be made in Hamburg — during transition period from »guild« to liberated market.

Well, it would be a little bit tricky — and a real knowledge who was their maker, could maybe find only by sounded archive research?

A little bit history of Hamburg Guild: Hamburg had for final — from mid XVI century on - only 48 master workshops. But there was a need for more. 1815 Hamburg Guild started to give concessions — symbol for a concessionaire was his number of concession in a lozenge. In January 1836 it was start a new concession rule — they had to pay 80 “Mark” for their concession and 20 “Mark” for a kind of “Social Security”.

It was permitted to concessionaires to have three additional workmen. Only permitted was production for and sale to 48 Hamburg main workshop. Almost of these concessionaire’ hasn’t had — next to their “concession number mark” — an own “master mark” [one of these exceptions is HESS]. Separate to their “concession number mark” is struck the punch of who’s from the above mentioned 48 masters who gave the order; or functioned as a wholesaler.

Tricky is that actually don’t exist [in »Schliemann«; but maybe also not in other guide’s?] an overview of concessionaires successions in number indication.

Close down of Hamburg Guild has start on 7 November 1864 by master workshop nr. 13, 16, 19, 27, 42 and 44; nr. 26 was wind up as last but one on 11 February 1865; nr. 47 (belonging to Carl Wilhelm Steffens) finally were dissolved on 23 June 1865. [Source: Fabian Stein in »Schliemann«, vol. I, p. 230-241].

Last town’s hallmarks were with date letters:

D = struck 10 December 1853 [in two version of dimension] until maybe first month of 1865 by Johann Jacob Probst (in responsibility for Friedrich Christoph Greve?) [Source: Fabian Stein in »Schliemann«, vol. II, p. 14, nr. 95].
E = struck 11 June 1857 [in four version of dimension] until maybe first month of 1865 by Johann Heinrich Jacob Wienicke (in responsibility for Ernst Friedrich Franck) [Source: Fabian Stein in »Schliemann«, vol. II, p. 14, nr. 95].
F = struck 11 June 1857 [in three version of dimension] until maybe first month of 1865 by Johann Heinrich Jacob Wienicke (in responsibility for Ernst Friedrich Franck) [Source: Fabian Stein in »Schliemann«, vol. II, p. 14, nr. 96].

Ananias HESS (1802 born in Bergen, Norway) had only a Hamburg concession (i.e. a master silversmith, who couldn’t get one of the 48 master workshops of the guild). He has got his concession (number isn’t mentioned in »Schliemann«, by Fabian Stein) on 5 July 1832 as Goldsmith — 14 March 1833 got citizenship in Hamburg as Gold and Silversmith. 1840 mentioned again as Goldsmith; 1856-1861 as Jeweller, Gold and Silversmith in St. Pauli [district of Hamburg]. After his death in 1863 widow run his shop until 1866 [Source: Fabian Stein in »Schliemann«, vol. II, p. 562, nr. C 53].

Concession number 69 (in a lozenge) was given 3 November 1844 to Nikolai Christian LANGKOW (from Apenrade [Aabenraa, Denmark]) as Silversmith — December 1844 got citizenship in Hamburg as Gold and Silversmith. 1855-1857 mentioned as concessionaire. On 27 November 1865 be come member of Hamburg Gold and Silversmith Corporation [Source: Fabian Stein in »Schliemann«, vol. II, p. 568, nr. C 183 ].

But who it is, or what signification? : HL12Q

Because in this transitional period of a quarter century until 1 January 1888 (German law for precious metal indication came in function) there had to be found an indication.

Hamburg Guild and Lübeck Guild had always some cooperations — I guess: Maybe a guarantee mark of Hamburg and Lübeck for 12 Lot Quality?

In other German town with less concurrence of goldsmith and silversmith, some of them have taken over her town hallmark as her personal quality mark for their products in silver alloy — e.g. Bruckmann, in Heilbronn.

But now, who made yours spoon in 1865-1866? I think: Nikolai Christian LANGKOW, and Widow HESS was their retailer.

Let’s hope that others with more sounded guide or knowledge would contribute.

Kind regards silverport

[silverport]

Hello

In my above published text must be read - in relation to last Hamburg town hallmarks or "assay master mark" - instead of "responsibility for" = "succession of"!

Here follows the corrected version:

Last town hallmarks of Hamburg were date letters:

D = struck 10 December 1853 [in two version of dimension] until maybe first month of 1865 by Johann Jacob Probst (in succession of Friedrich Christoph Greve?) [Source: Fabian Stein in »Schliemann«, vol. II, p. 14, nr. 95].
E = struck 11 June 1857 [in four version of dimension] until maybe first month of 1865 by Johann Heinrich Jacob Wienicke (in succession of Ernst Friedrich Franck) [Source: Fabian Stein in »Schliemann«, vol. II, p. 14, nr. 95].
F = struck 11 June 1857 [in three version of dimension] until maybe first month of 1865 by Johann Heinrich Jacob Wienicke (in succession of Ernst Friedrich Franck) [Source: Fabian Stein in »Schliemann«, vol. II, p. 14, nr. 96].

Kind regards silverport

[blakstone]

These exact marks are illustrated in the Weltkunst article I reference in this thread. “Hess” is indeed Ananias Hess, but the concession number is “59”; it’s worn here, but very clear in the Weltkunst illustration. It belonged to Johann Heinrich Friedrich Simmerlund (1807-1869), concession 1838 and Master 1851. Schmidt dates these marks ca. 1845, presumably because Simmerlund would only have used his concession number 1838-1851, having no need for it after becoming a master. What is strange, though, is that Hess was himself only a concessionaire and should, therefore, have been restricted to manufacturing for masters. It seems likely that the rules for concessionaires were not strictly followed.

Also, the other mark is much clearer in Schmidt’s article. It reads “11L12G” and stands for “11 Loth, 12 Grän”. The Loth was divided into 18 grän, so 11L 12G is equivalent to a fineness of .729.

[rat-tail]

Hi Blakstone and Silverport
Thanks for your enlightening replies, very much appreciated. And for solving the 11L12G riddle. Must admit i didn't think it legal to sell silver at less than 12 loth. Regards Frank

[Theoderich]

Hi Blakstone and Silverport
Thanks for your enlightening replies, very much appreciated. And for solving the 11L12G riddle. Must admit i didn't think it legal to sell silver at less than 12 loth. Regards Frank

In Germany, there was no uniform standard.
From region to region, from city to city, from time to time there were different rules.
One finds also 10 Löthigen (625) and rarely sometimes even 9 Lötiges 56.25.