rhomb-mark on Hamburg-silver

[R ingo]

Hello,
I have a question about the rhomb-mark on Hamburg-silver. The Watty-mark is Johann Heinrich Watty (1816-1889), the B&G mark is probably Brahmfeld & Gutruf (since 1842). When and why this mark was used?

Kind regards,
Ringo

[Theoderich]

I have seen this mark sometimes before with the name (I think it was)
Bohrmann

[R ingo]

Hello,
can someone tell me, why the article was moved from "German silver" to "German, French, Dutch, Russian, Scandinavian or Other"? When I now the reason, I can make it better next time.
But indeed it is silver from Hamburg (see here: www.925-1000.com/Fger_hamburg_01.html , or here: www.watty-genealogie.de/Goldschmiede-Privilegium.html).

kind regards,
Ringo

[Theoderich]

Hallo Ringo
there is no image from the item ;-)

[R ingo]

Hello Theoderich,
thank you very much. I did not know the word "item".
If it helps, here is a Photo of the items.
Good to see is also the typical form of the shoulders or wings from the spoon. This form I have only seen on Augsburger Faden-spoons and forks made in Hamburg.

Kind regards,
Ringo

[R ingo]

Hello,
could it be a retailer mark?
But why is on the ladle no city mark? Or is the ladle made after 1886 and with a purity less then 800?
Curiously the mark of the Hamburg sport club (HSV) looks very similar.
kind regards, Ringo

[Bahner]

Hello, this rhombical mark is (according to an info given in a number of the periodical "Goldschmiedekunst", 1903, if I remember correctly) that of (C.F.J.) Pape from Hamburg. who mostly made cutlery. That would make Watty et. al. retailers of the pieces shown here. Pape's patterns were aquired, according to the same source, by Franck of Hamburg. Best wishes, Bahner

[R ingo]

Hello Bahner,
I thank you very much.
I just read on the side about the Hamburg Silver Marks (www.925-1000.com/Fger_hamburg_01.html)and a side about the Family Watty (www.watty-genealogie.de/download/Meiste ... 0WATTY.pdf), that the Hamburg guild ended in in the late 1864 or 1865 and a transitional marking period existed before the German national system came into full force in the mid-1880s.
That is very interesting.
How can I visualize this transitional marking period? Is this, like in Schleswig-Holstein, a period without city- but only makers- and/or retailers-marks?

Kind regards,
Ringo

[silverport]

Hello Ringo

A little bit history of Hamburg Guild:

Hamburg had for final — from mid XVII century on - only 48 master workshops. But there was a need for more. 1815 Hamburg Guild started to give concessions — symbol for a concessionaire was his number of concession in a lozenge. In January 1836 it was start a new concession rule — they had to pay 80 “Mark” for their concession and 20 “Mark” for a kind of “Social Security”.

It was permitted to concessionaires to have three additional workmen. Only permitted was production for and sale to 48 Hamburg main workshop.

In January 1836 the first concessionaire, who has got a concession in conformity to new rules, was Nicolaus Conrad Ferdinand Schuch (1 July 1800 born in Hamburg), got Hamburg citizenship on 12 February 1836 as a jeweller — concession mentioned again in 1842 [Source: Fabian Stein in »Schliemann«, vol. II, p. 560; p. 565, nr. C 114].

Last concession was given on 15 November 1864 to Friedrich Karl Heinrich Kressel as silversmith. Then after this »Spezialrolle« (special roll of registry) was closed with this notice: »Hiermit schloß die Ertheilung von Concessionen abseits des Amtes, J. J. Probst« (Here with were ceased the conferral of concessions beside of the Guild, J. J. Probst [Elderman 10 December 1853-1865]) [Source: Fabian Stein in »Schliemann«, vol. II, p. 572, nr. C 296].

Its still miraculous that one week after first Guild master workshops were wind up from Guild, the same Guild confer a new concession!

Actually couldn’t be made an overview of concessionaires and their successions. Because some of the “Register of Concessionaires Association” be missing! In »Schliemann« are registered 296 concessionaires — by 92 concessions. Its signification is that these "concession indication numbers" — at least once - were used in successions of concessionaires.

Almost of these concessionaire’ hasn’t had — next to their “concession number mark” — an own “master mark”. (Maybe some had instead of this mark only their own “master mark”?) [Source: Fabian Stein in »Schliemann«, vol. II, p. 560-572].
Some known “master mark” of concessionaires; whose concession number isn’t struck:
»A.v.S«, concession nr. 51 [p. 560, nr. C 11];
»Albers« and »N.W.A« (N.W.A without frame) [p. 561, nr. C 23];
»SMB« in a cloverleaf [p. 562, nr. C 44];
»A.SCHADE« works in Brahmfeld’ shop [p. 562, nr. C 50];
»HESS« [p. 562, nr. C 53];
»J.CUHL« (J.CUHL without frame) [p. 562-563, nr. C 57];
»Zwicker« [p. 563-564, nr. C 77];
»HILCKEN« [p. 566, nr. C 149];
»Daake« in script [p. 567, nr. C 165];
»CJürgens« in script [p. 568, nr. C 196];
»MAHNKE« without frame, successor of concession nr. 27 [p. 569, nr. C 202];
»HESPE« framed, and »HESPE« without frame [p. 569, nr. C 203];
»HEINEMANN« [p. 570, nr. C 222];
»W.BECKER&Cº« without frame [p. 570, nr. C 226];
»Blohm« in script [p. 570, nr. C 232];
»Garmsen.« in script [p. 570, nr. C 239];
»F.Griese« in script [p. 570, nr. C 240];
»H.DAKE« without frame [p. 570, nr. C 242];
»A.D« in script [p. 571, nr. C 245];
»L.Victor«, »L.Victor.«, »LV.« [p. 571, nr. C 246];
»H.S« concession nr. 84 [p. 571, nr. C 247];
»CM« [p. 571, nr. C 248];
»A.W.« [p. 571, nr. C 259];
»SIMON« without frame [p. 571, nr. C 267];
»GIERTH« without frame [p. 572, nr. C 269];
»CJ.W.« in script [p. 572, nr. C 275];
»W.ZEPLIEN« without frame [p. 572, nr. C 276].

Separate to the “concession number mark” normally is struck the punch of who’s from the above mentioned 48 masters who gave the order; or functioned as a wholesaler.

Close down of Hamburg Guild has start on 7 November 1864 by master workshop nr. 13, 16, 19, 27, 42 and 44; nr. 26 was wind up as last but one on 11 February 1865; nr. 47 (belonging to Carl Wilhelm Steffens) finally were dissolved on 23 June 1865. [Source: Fabian Stein in »Schliemann«, vol. I, p. 230-241].

Last town hallmarks of Hamburg were date letters:

D = struck 10 December 1853 [in two version of dimension] until maybe first month of 1865 by Johan Jacob Probst (in succession of Friedrich Christoph Greve?) [Source: Fabian Stein in »Schliemann«, vol. II, p. 14, nr. 95].
E = struck 11 June 1857 [in four version of dimension] until maybe first month of 1865 by Johann Heinrich Jacob Wienicke (in succession of Ernst Friedrich Franck) [Source: Fabian Stein in »Schliemann«, vol. II, p. 14, nr. 95].
F = struck 11 June 1857 [in three version of dimension] until maybe first month of 1865 by Johann Heinrich Jacob Wienicke (in succession of Ernst Friedrich Franck) [Source: Fabian Stein in »Schliemann«, vol. II, p. 14, nr. 96].

On 27 November 1865 nearly all Gold and Silversmith, Gold worker and Concessionaires of Hamburg become member of new founded Hamburg Gold and Silversmith Corporation.

Carl Wilhelm J. Pape, from Friesack, in Prussian Kingdom, received his concession nr. 88 on 27 June 1858 as a silversmith. On 31 December 1865 (?) he become member of new founded Hamburg Gold and Silversmith Corporation [p. 571-572, nr. C 268].

A symbolic maker’s mark of Carl Wilhelm J. Pape isn’t shown in »Schliemann«; but could of course well exist.

In then following transitional period of a quarter century until 1 January 1888 (German law for precious metal indication [crescent, crown; > 800] came in function) there had to be found an indication.

In other German town with less concurrence of goldsmith and silversmith, some of them have taken over her town hallmark as her personal quality mark for their products in silver alloy — e.g. Bruckmann, in Heilbronn.

Kind regards silverport

[JAKJO]

Hi all,

Thanks for your contributions, I read this thread with great interest.

Recently I have seen Pape's rhombical mark on a spoon described as,
"800 Mond Krone, Raute mit Punkt, Krumstro" (800 crescent crown, square with dot). Krumstro is Heinrich Friedrich Krumstroh (1813-1876), Master 1842.

And here on a spoon, (very small picture) together with an unknown pictorial mark, perhaps a griffin...


Best regards/JAKJO

[R ingo]

Hello silverport,
thank you very much for your help and the much informations. I am deeply grateful and very impressed.

Kind regards,
Ringo