I am having an interesting discourse with a German antique expert who claims that the hallmarks on this fruit bowl are not Hanau but in fact Russian. He is adamant because of the 84 symbol in the hallmark. The silver expert at Christies believes that it is Hanau. She is adamant too.
He bases this on the following reasoning:
" the german hallmark is 12 Löth 13 Löth, 14 Löth and 16 Löth after 1886 800 and moon and crown" 84 has to be Russian. Hanau never did 84. Only 800.
Any arbitration here?
http://i40.tinypic.com/xat05e.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/iwomu0.jpg
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Hanau vs. Russian Marks
Hi,
Not here to arbitrate, but will offer my own opinion.
I believe it is Hanau, and probably Georg Roth before 1906, when the firm name was Hanauer Silberwaren-Manufaktur. HSM had one published trademark, a hand pouring wine from a jug. Also, the "crowned A" & "crowned P" where french pseudos favored by Roth, although in a very different letter font, I'd guess these were earlier versions. The "84" seems to hint at it being made for the Russian market.
Regards,
Tom
Not here to arbitrate, but will offer my own opinion.
I believe it is Hanau, and probably Georg Roth before 1906, when the firm name was Hanauer Silberwaren-Manufaktur. HSM had one published trademark, a hand pouring wine from a jug. Also, the "crowned A" & "crowned P" where french pseudos favored by Roth, although in a very different letter font, I'd guess these were earlier versions. The "84" seems to hint at it being made for the Russian market.
Regards,
Tom
Arbitration might be necessary if there were plausible arguments on each side, but there aren’t. Your German “expert” is totally wrong.
There’s nothing even remotely Russian about these marks; they are, in fact, imitation pre-Revolutionary French marks, and not very convincing ones at that. (The “84” here, in the genuine mark, represents the year 1784 and has nothing to do with the fineness.)
The best reference for Hanau pseudo-marks is Wolfgang Scheffler’s Goldschmiede Hessens, but it’s far from definitive. (For pseudo-marks, at least; it’s the bible for genuine Hessian silver marks.) I’ve been recording and comparing ersatz Hanau marks for several years, building on Scheffler’s research, and I can tell you that they are almost limitless.
I’ve never seen these exact marks before, but they fall into the classification I call “faux French”; i.e., those pseudo-marks which make a more-or-less faithful attempt to copy ancien régime French marks (with varying degrees of success). Such marks were also used in France, usually alongside genuine French marks, but sometimes - quite illegally - not. There’s an entire chapter devoted to them (and the Hanau variety) in Jacques Helft’s Nouveaux Poinçons.
But the piece itself here screams “Hanau”, with all its overblown and sentimental rococo fussiness. I don’t see any of Georg Roth’s usual trademarks - portrait medallions, floral swags, pierced trelliswork - but he’s as good a guess as any.
Trust the lady at Christie’s. Frankly, anyone who is adamant that this mark is Russian simply cannot be considered an expert on silver.
There’s nothing even remotely Russian about these marks; they are, in fact, imitation pre-Revolutionary French marks, and not very convincing ones at that. (The “84” here, in the genuine mark, represents the year 1784 and has nothing to do with the fineness.)
The best reference for Hanau pseudo-marks is Wolfgang Scheffler’s Goldschmiede Hessens, but it’s far from definitive. (For pseudo-marks, at least; it’s the bible for genuine Hessian silver marks.) I’ve been recording and comparing ersatz Hanau marks for several years, building on Scheffler’s research, and I can tell you that they are almost limitless.
I’ve never seen these exact marks before, but they fall into the classification I call “faux French”; i.e., those pseudo-marks which make a more-or-less faithful attempt to copy ancien régime French marks (with varying degrees of success). Such marks were also used in France, usually alongside genuine French marks, but sometimes - quite illegally - not. There’s an entire chapter devoted to them (and the Hanau variety) in Jacques Helft’s Nouveaux Poinçons.
But the piece itself here screams “Hanau”, with all its overblown and sentimental rococo fussiness. I don’t see any of Georg Roth’s usual trademarks - portrait medallions, floral swags, pierced trelliswork - but he’s as good a guess as any.
Trust the lady at Christie’s. Frankly, anyone who is adamant that this mark is Russian simply cannot be considered an expert on silver.
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