Silver 13 & MOP Snuff Box - Can you help identify?

[BiggerDiamondsPlease]

The box has a house and windmill under latch at front and under hinge at back. The same house is shown on left side north and right side north. As for the marks I can not identify: the first, only if I look at it upside down, looks like the head of a bird, but not at all like the Doopoe. The second mark is 13 with a small bar to the left north of it. In the 1 there is a flat spot in the middle and there may be two initials sideway in the middle of the 1. The other marks elude me completely. Please can someone identify?

[BiggerDiamondsPlease]

I'd like to add that the first mark, if viewed side way (instead of reading it from left to right like the "13"). it might be the face. From that angle it looks like a portrait bust. My eyes are now seeing all sorts of images, like watching cloud formations. If you'd like to see other pictures, let me know please.

[dinio]

Hi,

I wonder if the two identical marks on the right could correspond to French import marks, because of the following facts :
- these two marks have been struck differently than the 3 other marks: the metal is slightly more deformed than for the 3 other marks. It suggest a different marking time perhaps at time of import in another country.
- some of the French import marks had a rectangular shape during 19C (one contained the letters ET, the other contained a weevil),
- they were stuck several times according to the tax amount paid,

If this hypothesis is right you could have 2 marks on the opposite side of the metal, but this is not mandatory. These counter marks would correspond to the 'bigorne'. Do you see something on the opposite side of these 2 marks?

I can notice that there is a tiny windmill under the clasp. This makes me think about a possible dutch origin. On the other hand the 13 suggests a German origin as you have guessed. Perhaps from some German region close to Holland?

Generally speaking, the picture of the marks is a bit fuzzy. Could you post something clearer?

Hope this helps.
Dinio

[BiggerDiamondsPlease]

Dino, one smart cookie you are! Yes, those two right marks are made so heavily they indent into the other side. There doesn't appear to be any initials or letters inside the two boxes, but if you try looking at where the heavy indent is on the inside of the box it looks like it could be two "S".

If I could see what the weevil is supposed to look like then I might find it in there. Believe me, I've been looking at these marks so often I am seeing things, I'm sure of it.

As for the windmill, look to the left of it and you will see a house. A version of just the house adorns both right and left sides at the back corners (on the right it's under the markings. I'm off the take more photos to post. Thank you a million for helping get this on track. You'll be saving my sanity!

[dinio]

Hi again,

Here is a photo showing the two possible French import marks : the rectangle containing ET was used 1864-1893, whereas the rectangle containing the weevil was used since 1893. Do you recognize one of them?

Regards,
Dinio

[BiggerDiamondsPlease]

Dino, does the first mark resemble a human head faced left? If you rotate it, it looks kind of like the head of a bird with it's feathers in the background. Also see "head" in last photo.
And yes, what is inside of the two last marks is what looks like an "ant". Both are the same. I can see what appears to be the gaster, thorax, and legs. The 'striation' marks on the body of the insect you've pictured seem to match as well. I only have a 10x loop so this is very hard to see unfortunately! Please advise.

[JAKJ]

It is a human head faced left in my opinion and the other mark beside the 13-loth-mark looks like a crowned plant.

[BiggerDiamondsPlease]

Can anyone see there is something stamped in the middle of the "1"? Best viewed in last photo. As for the theory of a "crowned plant", at first my impression was that of a tulip. I also see it could be a crown, but what is attached to it I can not make out precisely. This box is in pristine condition, as though made just yesterday. I can not imagine it being in this condition for, what looks like, a very old piece. Didn't Germany stop marking "13" between 1844 and 1886? I see Finland might have also used the "13"? If so, I do not find anything that appears to match any of the 4 remaining marks either from Germany or Finland. Any thoughts on this?

[BiggerDiamondsPlease]

I may have solved a mark! Look at the sepia picture of the markings, under the first picture of the "head". Now, tilt your left ear to your left shoulder and look at the mark right of the "13". I think that looks like the face of a cat wearing a crown. Look here at the symbol for the City of London and tell me what you think please. Just click "British Hallmarks" at the top of this page. Thank you!

[dognose]

Hi,

Sorry, but none of these marks are British.

Trev.

[BiggerDiamondsPlease]

Sure? The 3rd photo matches the "City Mark" of London right down to the whiskers. It's called the "Crowned Leopards Head". Anyone else see that?

[dinio]

Hi,

I agree with dognose and JAKJ: there is no british mark and the third mark looks like a crowned plant.
Here is the current status:
- the leftmost mark looks like a human head facing left,
- the 13 mark is for sure referring to 13 löths. The small thing in leg of the 1 figure does not seem important to me. Thus we must focus on a country in which the löthige system has been in force. Does somebody know the complete list of such countries?
- the third mark looks like a crowned plant.
- then you recognized 2 weevil marks for French import. This means that the box came into France after 1893, from a country whose marking system was recognized by French import system (otherwise it would have been the oval swan mark). You confirmed this by the presence of the "bigorne" mark on the opposite side of these markings.

Definitely we would need clearer picture of the crowned plant mark, and of the weevil marks, as clear as the other 2 marks.

Dinio

[BiggerDiamondsPlease]

I am working hard to photograph the marks you've requested, without much luck I'm afraid. I will post new photos when I have obtained something worthy of viewing. Meanwhile, doesn't anyone recognize the 'head', and if that is a 'crowned plant' I certainly have not come across anything that resembles it on this website. Any thoughts at all?

[BiggerDiamondsPlease]

I don't know if I can do much better than this. I'm sorry if it's too big!

[BiggerDiamondsPlease]

I've taken some micro photos that show more detail of all the Hallmarks. A researcher from the World Hallmark Research Institute suggested the "crowned plant" may be a "thistle" although she could not find that mark. She thought the "human head" might be a French Discharge mark used on "larger objects' 1775 to 1781 but she had not seen a photo of the entire box, nor did she know it's size of 1 ¾ x 1 ½ x 7/16. Hopefully the new photos will unearth the mystery of this box. Thanks for looking:

http://e.imagehost.org/0316/C_HEAD.jpg
http://e.imagehost.org/0540/A_HEAD.jpg
http://e.imagehost.org/0736/2_ANTS.jpg
http://e.imagehost.org/0430/BEST_ANTS.jpg
http://e.imagehost.org/0736/2_ANTS.jpg
http://e.imagehost.org/view/0632/THISTLE.jpg
http://e.imagehost.org/view/0632/1ST_3_MARKS.jpg

(admin photo edit - images too large - link only - see Posting Requirements--Please re-read )