Please help identifying hallmark

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
Bill Palmer
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:18 am

Please help identifying hallmark

Postby Bill Palmer » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:37 pm

I can't tell if this is gold plated or if it is gold. I'm way out of my league on this one. It is from a pair of cups.

Image

silverport
contributor
Posts: 870
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:18 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Please help identifying hallmark

Postby silverport » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:15 pm

Replica »Vaphio« cup II = Wild bulls; National Museum of Athena, Greece.

Hello Bill

The shown cup is a replica, made by an Electro galvanic processing — almost made from copper, then after gilded also by an Electro galvanic processing.

This kind of production of replica is already practised from about 1850 on — Queen Victoria gave order to Elkington, to make from all important metal ware antiquities copies for the »Victoria and Albert Museum« in London.

The originals were found 1888 in Vaphio, hence the name, in the Province Laconia, Greece. They are now about 3,500 years old.

There are two ones:
»Vaphio« cup I = Tamed bulls; National Museum of Athena
»Vaphio« cup II = Wild bulls; National Museum of Athena

The construction is like as a thermos cup — an inside cup = clean; an outside cup = decorative; an hollow handle too.

Tell me now: Who invented the »thermos«?

What you call a »Hallmark«, is in this case the “maker’s markof the replica.

You've the version with the »Wild Bulls«.

Enjoy yours replica!

Kind regards silverport

Bill Palmer
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:18 am

Re: Please help identifying hallmark

Postby Bill Palmer » Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:18 pm

Actually, I am completely aware of what this cup is, as far as being a replica of one of the Vaphio cups is concerned. I have several of them in my collection; however, none of them actually has a hallmark or a maker's mark. Instead, they have a big stamp on the bottom that says "Made in Greece"

I'm also quite aware of the history of the Vaphio cups and the location of the genuine articles.

There were some sterling silver replicas made of these cups right around the previous turn of the century. So my question is still unanswered.

Does anyone know whose mark this is?

And does anyone know the significance of the number 22 in the column of the maker's mark.

To answer the question about the thermos bottle, the people of Mycenae certainly didn't invent the thermos bottle, because a thermos bottle actually has a vacuum between the layers.

Anyone else want to try?

salmoned
contributor
Posts: 317
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:38 pm
Location: Hawaii

Re: Please help identifying hallmark

Postby salmoned » Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:02 pm

I can't imagine why anyone would. Your rudeness at not sharing all you knew, then blasting Silverport for offering related information isn't quite as inviting of replies as you may have imagined. Thanks, Silverport - I found the information interesting.

silverport
contributor
Posts: 870
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:18 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: Please help identifying hallmark

Postby silverport » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:45 pm

Electro galvanic Replica of »Vaphio« cup II (Wild bulls).

Hello Bill

Almost replicas were made from copper! Because the replicas should show the original appearances; in case of the »Vaphio« cups, the replicas were gilded. It doesn’t matter if the basics were made from copper, “Sterling” (?) or other materials.

If you would read some professional explanations on replicas, be made by Electro galvanic processing, then you would learn, that is needed a homogenous processing material.

For that reason almost replica are made from copper — well, and some from silver, normally »pure« silver = 999.9-1,000 fineness.

“Sterling” as you know isn’t »pure« silver, but a silver of 925-1,000 fineness.

The problem in the Electro galvanic processing is that the dissolve of silver and copper is different, if you place a piece of 925-1,000 fineness as anode. Afterwards it was always necessary to plate the results surface with a more ore less thin layer of »pure« silver with 999.9-1,000 fineness; to get an optically homogenous appearance.

That would be also the same if the corpus were made from a gold alloy. I imagine that you hope and assume the »22« may stand for »22 carat gold«?

The mark on your »Vaphio« cup I don’t know — there are also two Greek »Delta« letters. So I guess the cup is made in Greece too.

If you hold in mind, that until the thirties of last century in Greece every silversmith was autonomous — he and his mark had only to be registered by the local police.

If he used a not usual silver or gold alloy, it was up to him to live with the consequences — if there were some, and then they were most times reactions by the local »market« only.

Until yet I don’t know, that exist a guide of maker’s mark from whole Greece.

I advise you, to place your marks question direct to the Greece National Museum.

Please inform afterwards »925-1000« from the result.

Thank you in advance!

Kind regards silverport

dognose
Site Admin
Posts: 41166
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:53 pm
Location: England

Re: Please help identifying hallmark

Postby dognose » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:56 pm

Some examples of the Vaphio cup from the WMF catalogue of 1904:

Image

Trev.


Return to “Gold Marks - Worldwide”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests