What is the date of this Gorham box? Bigelow kennard& co.

[gsmoggy]

Hi members
I am a bit confused on the date of this box,the Bigelow kennard & co 1863-1923. The Gorham mark is supposed to be1964
was the Gorham mark the same around 1923 ?
Regards Guido.

[AG2012]

Hi,
It is not 1964.This Gorham mark was used throughout 20th century.
Compare with this Gorham mark retailed by Bigelow & Kennard & Co in 1914 (date mark on the left).
Meaning your box was made before Bigelow & Kennard & Co went out of business in 1922 or 1923.
Regards

[gsmoggy]

Many thanks ,ag ,
Does this mean that the box may have been made at a date between 1911-12 ,and1923 ,when Bigelow&Kennard co,changed to that name?

Again many thanks Guido.

[AG2012]

It would be really difficult to tell exact year of manufacture based on data we have in regard of the retailer.
Is there date mark on your box ?
If not, let's say early 20th century up to 1923.That's good enough for dating any silver item,I think.

[gsmoggy]

Hello again
no ,there is no date mark,my only hope for a more accurate date would be if the same box comes up with a date mark.I am not sure if Bigelow sold only new things or if the box may have been already old when they sold it .I noticed Goraham used a similar mark with eagle in 1871 Martelle range.
The Bigelow mark seems to tell us roughly when it was sold but not when it was made.

The style looks to me to be more of a Victorian style than an Edwardian style .eg earlier than later.
Is it unusual not to have a date mark?

regards Guido.

[gsmoggy]

Hello
After my last post I googled the box number .Quite a few exactly the same boxes came up ,they are saying it is 1899-1900 and the date code is in the Gorham mark.The one like mine had the date code for 1900. I did not know about the date code,which must be the last letter in the cartouche.

Looks like the query has be solved. I am happy with the result,as I always felt 1964 was not right. the shape of the cartouche on the Gorham site i did not read properly.

Regards Guido.

[gsmoggy]

Hello again
After my last post ,I have realised ,that the people online selling some of these boxes are mistaking the Gorham trade logo with the date mark which is usually some other separate logo .
The trade logo on my box ,looks like it may have first been used around 1900.

The B in front of 345 may be for 1869,when this original pattern was designed ,because the trade logo on my box is the later logo and not the earlier one
I have finally understood the marking system.My box not having a date logo has just confused things. It seems that this pattern with the original stamping dies was made over many years.
Regards Guido.

[dragonflywink]

The style of your Gorham trademark did come into use right around 1900, but should keep in mind that the earlier trademark with 'unframed' elements was still used occasionally. The 'B' has nothing to do with 1869, those early date code letters were not combined with a production number; the letter prefixes on the production numbers were instituted in 1898, with the 'B' prefix intended for use on accessories for the dresser, desk, etc. (the trio of letters on the example posted by AG2012 indicates a special order or sample). There are differing dates, varying by source, for the demise of Bigelow, Kennard & Co., but they produced a catalog for 1929, so one could probably assume that they were still in business until at least around then, and the last of the prefixed Gorham production codes were almost all phased out by around the same time. Believe your box was probably first produced right around 1898-99 or in the first few years of the 20th century, and a good seller might be offered for a fairly long time, so as already said, even without a date code (which wasn't particularly uncommon), you still have a fairly small window of production for your piece...

~Cheryl

[gsmoggy]

Hi Cheryl
Many thanks for your explanation of the Gorham trade mark,it is amazing how complicated it can be to work these marks out some times,as i said not having a date mark complicated things.I feel you are right to say that my box may have first been made around 1898-1900.When it was sold by Bigelow&Kennard is another story (old stock stamped later,secondhand box stamped later, new box stamped between 1911-1923 when this Bigelow name first used.
Again many thanks Guido.

[dragonflywink]

Sorry, I don't understand what mark you are referring to - the name on your box, 'Bigelow Kennard & Co.', dates from the 1860s until the firm went out business. The box was made no earlier than 1898, would have been purchased from Gorham for resale somewhere in the next 25-30 years, likely in the earlier part of that window, but not necessarily - can't really date it any more precisely than that...

~Cheryl

[gsmoggy]

Hi Cheryl
The mark I was speaking about was the Bigelow Kennard &co stamp,as this became the company name around 1911-1912,as you suggested if the original design was made around 1900 it was either old stock stamped between 1911-1912 or because it was very popular and a good seller it was still being made new in 1911-1912.

thanks for your help Guido.

[dognose]

this became the company name around 1911-1912

Where did you get that from?


Bigelow, Kennard & Co. - Boston, Mass. - 1875

See: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=44449

Trev.

[dragonflywink]

You're welcome, Guido - though it feels a bit like I've just been banging my head against a wall. No idea where the dates you mention came from, but they are incorrect...

~Cheryl

[gsmoggy]

Hi Again Cheryl
I am happy to be wrong,I am sorry about confusing you, If you google Bigelow,Kennard and company records, they are from the Harvard library.(Hollis for archival discovery) It says that Bigelow Kennard and company were incorporated in 1912.This is the name on my box.
I do not know when they first used this name on their goods,as it states they were incorporated at this time I assumed this was when the box was made.
Other names that seemed to be used earlier ,John Bigelow & co, Bigelow and Brothers and Kennards.

As my box did not have the earlier names, I thought it was made from 1912 to when they closed 1923.

Regards Guido.