Sterling straight razor scales

[Daneliuk]

I'm trying to identify the manufacturer of the scales on this straight razor. The first two look similar to Gorham hallmarks. The third mark looks like it was poorly struck, but the partial mark doesn't appear to match any example of the G's they've used.
Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[dragonflywink]

Hi ~ welcome to the forums. Looks like a very poorly struck variant of a Gorham mark to me, most likely late 19th century - no time at the moment, but can hunt around later for a better strike that might be comparable...

~Cheryl

[Francais]

The marks aren't in the Gorham book. And I think there are several differences between the marks you have and Gorham marks in General. Also Gorham marks are usually accompanied by model numbers, etc and often date letters or symbols. You might look all over it for a little letter or symbol. Although it seems like an odd thing to fake, I don't think those are Gorham marks, and I know of no other company that uses those marks.
Having said that, I don't ever remember having a Gorham sterling straight razor.

Maurice

[JLDoggett]

Those handles would have been die-struck with the marks in the base die. It is very odd to have them struck afterwards. The porosity of the metal and the file marks lead me to suspect they are counterfeit. As for why fake them, a recent popular Television "pawn" show had a counterfeit Gorham baby rattle... why make it?

[Daneliuk]

Thanks for the responses everyone. You very well could be correct that it is a counterfeit, I just have a few more things to add. What you're seeing as file marks aren't file marks, they are where the tang (tail end) of the razor rubs on the scales every time the it is opened or closed. Here are the marks also showing up on the tang of the razor.



As for the porosity here are some pictures showing the contrast of what the metal looks like where it has/hasn't been rubbing between the scales.




Again, you could be correct. Just two of the things you're basing your conclusion on seem to be just a result of how a straight razor operates.

[Francais]

I was about to write the same thing, I presumed that is what the scratches were caused by.
And quite honestly I didn't understand "in the base die". But on the side of it being faked, I don't ever remember seeing a spread out sterling mark on a piece of Gorham silver.
Maurice

[silverly]

I cannot comment one or another on the mark, but I do think the "repousse" looks very good.

[Francais]

The problem is that it is not really repoussee, which means struck in one direction with a small tool, and then struck in the other direction, again with a small tool. In Fact the flatware of the same name by Kirk hasn't been made that way for a long time, and most pieces never. It is drop forged. So copying this would be relatively easy. Once the die is made, by whatever method, you just put the planchet in a machine and Bob's your uncle. I don't know what this would be worth, but faking it would be easy, and cost effective if enough pieces were made.
Maurice

[silverly]

Thanks for the exclamation Maurice, but to be honest, the reason I put the word repousse in parentheses was because I expected the handle was just in that style.

Back to the marks though, and maybe this has already been brought up, but if they're stamped in the steel parts as it appears, that for me would be cause for serious doubts about their authenticity.

[silverly]

After another look, I do see that they're on the inside of the handle pieces, oh well.

[Daneliuk]

If they made it to mass produce and turn a profit, we should be seeing examples pop up online by now I'd think. I inherited this piece about 5 years ago, and I don't know how long my relative had it before that.

With that said, I haven't put any money into the razor so i wouldn't be heartbroken if it turned out to be a counterfeit of some sort. It's not getting sold either way, and it actually shaves quite well. I'm more interested in the history if it has one.

If different pictures would help, let me know what you want to see and I'll try my best with the camera I've got. In the mean time I'm going to break out my loupe and look for a date mark.

[Francais]

I am sorry I got confused about who posted what.
I agree about postings of others, I checked earlier, and found none, which was why I hesitated.
The more pics the better, including any marks on the steel.
The only reason I brought up value is that I wouldn't think a razor would be worth faking. You might ask for more provenance if possible.
Maurice

[dragonflywink]

Can't say that I have anything other than a passing knowledge of straight razors, but will say that I have seen more than one by Gorham, most in fitted kits. Might be a bit dense and half-blind, but doesn't seem clear to me from the pictures and discussion if the blade is marked as sterling, or if it's just on the scales - have seen many fruit knives with silver blades and most seemed fairly keen, but have to suspect that silver would be difficult to sharpen enough for a comfortable shave (the blade is steel, isn't it?). The floral pattern, which also strikes me as rather nicely done, wouldn't be uncommon on both men's and women's accessories from the late 19th-early 20th century era. Not really sure why the marks would have necessarily been part of the die, seems to me an awful lot of die-struck silver was marked with a separate punch - perhaps there were also adjustments needed to make everything move smoothly...

Carpenter's 'Gorham Silver, 1831-1981' is a wonderful reference, but hardly comprehensive - personally, not really seeing any problem with the mark, but maybe that's just because I've seen so many variations of the Gorham 'lion/anchor/G' trademark, looks to me like the lion is a bit chattered and that the last mark is a partial 'G'. Gorham marks can be pretty idiosyncratic, and placement can vary, have seen them scattered on a number of pieces; production numbers and date codes, even more so, are not always present. Just off the top of my head, some examples of anomalies in their marks would include the Hamburg pattern, which more often than not appears without any Gorham trademark at all, usually bearing only a 'C' and "Sterling'; the demitasse spoons in their Delhi pattern seemingly always lack 'Sterling' marks, but do bear the 1885 boar's-head date mark, very unusual on flatware; and the simple mark like the one here, with Gothic 'G' and lacking cartouches, is generally accepted as dating to the last quarter of the 19th century, and while it seems to seldom show up on items dating after the turn of the century, it does often appear on the later 1920s Eric Magnussen designed pieces.

Poked around my own silver without luck in finding a mark identical to this one, and then just pulled a few late 19th-early 20th century marks, to show a very small sample of variants. Would love to have the Gorham catalog CDs, but don't see that happening any time soon, so will have to settle for the pages below, from a partial 1888 Gorham catalog, showing floral shaving items and a very similar pattern on hand mirrors in the same catalog, and then mention in an 1898 Gorham publication of razors as part of their regular production.

~Cheryl

[JLDoggett]

Reply in haste, explain in leisure... LOL. I should have added " " around the word file in my reply. I assumed those marks were made by the tang of the blade, however the blade in a Gorham piece should be so well finished there would be nothing to create those scratches. I seem to recall that Gorham blades were made by Wilkinson in England though I can only see the word England on the tine. That blade should be well polished all the way, after-all a gentleman or his valet would not want to scratch his hand on a poorly finished edge, nor would his wife were it hers.

As for the process for making the scales: it would have been a 2 part process to get the pattern raised as high as it is. First a prep die was used in a drop-press to half-raise the pattern, then the blanks would be annealed and trimmed next they would be drop-pressed between the finish dies. Both sets of dies would have 2 parts. There would be a "pattern" die and a "base" die. The base die would be the obverse of the item, it would have had a slightly domed outline of the opening of the pattern die and would contain the maker's mark, quality stamp and at one end an area that would later be the separation block on the far tip. The pattern die would be locked into the bottom of the drop press, the base die would be keyed into it then locked into the striker. The worker would insert the blank in the pattern die and with a trip of the handle the weight would smash down and drop-press the dies together raising the image in the pattern die.

With so much area to have your maker's mark and quality stamp it is hard to think that Gorham would leave those areas blank, instead crudely stamping their mark on the tine end.

[silverly]

The mark seems to have been made by a die with more than usual detail for outline type of stamp. I can't help but wonder If different departments in Gorham didn't have their own dies for stamping marks, and maybe as is generally the case each die was a little different. This is just a thought and without confirmation shouldn't be taken too seriously.

[Francais]

I never like to say never when discussing silver, since there always seems to be some exception to every rule. Having said that, I don't think there was ever a razor with a sterling blade, at least not a usable one. Silver won't hold an edge.
I think in more than 40 years I have handled about as many unusual pieces of Gorham silver as anyone, although I know at least one person who knows a lot more about Gorham silver than I do.
Those marks look wrong to me, I don't want to get into minutia, but look at the cross bar on the anchor. Normally it should be right below the ring, you could say it was stamped poorly, but the ring is deeply stamped. The lion has way too much detail and you can see individual strokes of the die cutter in the tail.
Generally, to me, it doesn't look like a Gorham mark. I could be wrong. Also I don't like the sterling mark, and finding Gorham pieces large enough to be marked that just have the Gorham mark and sterling, a bit unusual.
I can't resist telling a few stories, hopefully amusing, about Gorham marks. Every has run into someone who identifies a piece of Gorham silver as Birmingham. But if you have had the meat skewer, letter opener, it really looks like a Birmingham mark, deeply struck like the real thing.
I also remember a dealer, who bought a piece of Gorham coin silver, quite nice. But he took it back to the seller, he said Gorham told him that if it wasn't marked sterling, it was plated.
Finally years ago, before I read anything about the c mark, I saw a set of 12 spoons with ancient roman coin medallions. I don't remember how, but I immediately recognized them as Gorham. I really was certain, but I think I could find nothing about the c mark. There was another buyer attending the auction, who was very keen on Gorham silver. In any case I didn't think I overpaid for them, but they didn't come really cheap. When I picked them up, the auction house worker, brings them out a fitted Gorham box, with charioteers etc all over it, maybe the fanciest I ever saw. I couldn't believe they displayed them without the box.
Maurice

[Daneliuk]

Wow, thanks for all the information Cheryl and everyone else who has responded! That's a lot of work you put in to help out a stranger. I really enjoy reading through them all.
Here's a picture labeling the different parts of a straight razor so its easier to follow.



The tang/tail of the razor is marked sterling. This is the only mark I could find on the tang which is odd, The tang will usually be marked with the razors manufacturer on it like this.


And here's the sterling mark on mine


Here's a couple pictures showing the difference between the metals on the tang and blade portion




The blade is made of carbon steel, and the tang of the razor says its made out of sterling. Silver would be a very poor metal to try and make a straight razor blade with, it wouldn't be able to hold a sharp enough edge. Carbon steel rusts very easily if not taken care of often which is why there is some rust and pitting on the blade. Many razors are now made with stainless steel for that very reason.

[dragonflywink]

Interesting - thanks for the additional pictures, was sure the blade would be steel, made me shudder to think of shaving with a silver blade. Strikes me as unusual construction, looks like the blade's tang is set into sort of a sterling 'sleeve'? Wish I'd paid more attention to the sterling razors I've run across before - but personally, am still not getting the 'bad vibe' from this piece that others are...

~Cheryl

[Francais]

I have gone back and forth on this razor. In favor of the piece is the quality of construction. That fitted sterling tang, has to be unusual. It adds to the cost, and seems a bit impractical, especially on a fake.
Obviously weighted knives are the norm, but this isn't weighted, it is fitted. I have only seen a few items made like this. The mark on it also looks normal. I presume you have looked all over with the razor in different positions, ie more or less open, and you still haven't found any other marks?
Against it are the Gorham marks, the lack of a mark on the steel, the lack of other date or model marks, etc. What is really odd is that Gorham didn't put it's mark on the tang. Gorham was never bashful about it's mark showing, and it seems like the perfect place to mark it.
I guess it could go either way.
Maurice