Mark on 17th c. spoon with images

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Brown46
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:24 pm

123 views, 0 replies. What does that mean?

Post by Brown46 »

Hello:

I am new to the forum and have clearly made mistakes with my first posts, though I am not sure what they are. I have two questions that have received no answers despite numerous views.

I have an apostle spoon with a mark that I am hoping to identify. I posted under the title "Apostle spoon, partial mark, old or modern?" After receiving a number of views but no responses, I received the helpful message that members tend not to look at images that are linked rather than embedded. Although I followed the instructions for posting images, I didn't realize that there was a function on imgur that would embed images, so only the link to the imgur page appeared. That may have accounted for the lack of responses. I created a new post under the title "Mark on 17th c. spoon, with images" and properly embedded images of the spoon and the mark. I then replied to my first post with a message explaining that I had created a new post with images. The first post has since received more than 50 new views and the second has received 28, but still no replies.

I had hoped, but not expected, that someone would recognize the mark. My questions, however, were more general:

1) Were there any recommended resources that might help me to identify the mark?

2) Is the mark, which is round and has text running around the interior like the text on a medieval coin, consistent with 17th century marks, which seem to be mostly monograms or motifs? I would be happy to know that the mark isn't from the 19th century or later. The spoon comes from a collection that appears to be all 17th century pieces.

I am assuming that everyone who has looked at the first post has seen that there is only a link rather than images and has closed it without reading my questions. However, the new post with images has received 28 views with no replies. I am wondering why.

I realize that it may be that no one has answered my first question because the information is already available somewhere on the site. That would make sense. It is certainly reasonable to expect someone to do preliminary research before asking for help.I did search for prior posts with information about resources for researching 17th century marks. I found mention of Citroen's Dutch Goldsmiths' and Silversmiths' Marks and Names, but may have missed others.

I am more curious about the lack of response to my other question. I have received no replies, but I cant tell whether that's because no one has read the question or no one knows whether a mark with text is possible on a 17th century apostle spoon.

I'm sure that the lack of replies is due to some mistake that I've made. Perhaps I have posted in the wrong place, "Silverplate trademarks – worldwide." If anyone has any advice about what I should do to reach someone knowledgable about marks on 17th century apostle spoons I would really appreciate it. I have ordered Citroen's text but am unsure whether that will contain the information I'm seeking. The spoon could be English or of some other origin.

Thanks

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AG2012
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Re: 123 views, 0 replies. What does that mean?

Post by AG2012 »

Hi,
First of all, are you sure it is silver? Have you reconsidered pewter ?
Circular marks are common on pewter.
Unfortunately, not a single letter can be deciphered.
Regards
dognose
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Location: England

Re: 123 views, 0 replies. What does that mean?

Post by dognose »

Hi,

Your post has been up for only three days! You appear to need an answer with great urgency for some reason?

This is a time of year when many members are away from the forum. You may wait weeks or months for an answer. This service is free and there is no obligation for members to answer your question, they will do so only if they choose to.

Patience is a virtue! (Or you could use the services of a paid appraiser).

Trev.
Brown46
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Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:24 pm

Re: Mark on 17th c. spoon with images

Post by Brown46 »

Hello AG2012:

Thanks for your message! The spoon is brass, but formerly had a silver plating. Your suggestion is helpful, since I didn't consider that there could be a difference between marks on pewter and those on silver. I assumed that a spoon with silver plating would have been made by a silversmith. I don't know whether brass, pewter, and silver-working were considered different professions in the 17th century, but if they were governed by different kinds of marks, then I could indeed be asking my questions on the wrong forum. Knowing that might be the case helps a lot!
Brown46
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:24 pm

Re: Mark on 17th c. spoon with images

Post by Brown46 »

Thanks Trev. I haven't followed this forum and assumed that 120 views would be close to all I would get. I didn't realize that the number of members was a lot larger or that it was typical to respond to posts after weeks or months. I'm not in a hurry. I can do the research myself but thought that it would be wise before ordering resources through interlibrary loan to check to see if anyone recognized the mark or had advice about the most likely resources for finding it. It does help to know that perhaps I should check marks for pewter rather than silver.
Brown46
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:24 pm

Re: Mark on 17th c. spoon with images

Post by Brown46 »

As this information may be helpful to anyone who, like me, is seeking information on a 17th-century maker's mark that includes text rather than just initials or a motif, I will pass along what I have found so far.

For my question as to whether a circular maker's mark with text running around the interior is possible for the 17th century the answer is yes, at least on English gold plate. Charles James Jackson's English Goldsmiths and Their Marks includes an image of such a mark for Fras. Garthorne, in which the surname is inscribed within a circle and around a central F. The mark is dated 1696-7 and appears on a jug in the collection of Windsor Castle. Jackson also illustrates a similar mark for R. Hutchinson, though that one dates to 1723. It appears on a punch ladle.

In his Dutch Goldsmiths' and Silversmiths' Marks and Names Prior to 1812, Karel Citroen lists a number of Dutch makers' marks that include text rather than just initials. Unfortunately, the marks are not illustrated, so it is not possible to say whether any of these appear in the configuration of my mark or the English marks mentioned above.

Since others may eventually find this information useful to identifying worn Dutch marks with text prior to 1812, I will list those that Citroen has identified. I did not find any that appear to match the legible parts of my mark, but Citroen also lists a great many Dutch Goldsmiths and Silversmiths whose marks have not been identified. If I find any with letter sequences that match those on my mark I will post that information.

The following marks from Citroen contain the makers name in some combination. Most are in uppercase, but some include both upper and lowercase. Some are only the surname and others include the first initial before the surname. Citroen includes locations, dates and the maker's full name, so anyone who recognizes a name from a worn mark should check his book.

CATS
DEHAUS
DIEMONT
DIUNG
DuPont
DUYM
DVEER
ELIAS SCERPSWERT
FAERNST
FAK
FVANOSCH
GMARSHOORN
GPOOL
GSTAM
HAAK

HAAS

HAGEN

HART
HAYE
Hendrick Bloem
HESLING
HIRONIMUS HOLL
HOKKE
HPVEYSEN & ZOON FECIT
IBHOFFINGER DE WESPIN
ILRNEZ
ILUMTA
INAUDIN
IPOT
ISCHEPENS
KOOP
KUEN
LAPRO
Mensbier
Nijman
MEYER
OVDIJK
PALM
PAPING
Paulus
Petrus Stagman fec
PhMetayer
POTHOLT
PPRIE
PREESE
REEN
SCHRADER
SCHUT
Seb.duFlos
SEIS
SIMONS
Sluis
STAM
STAPELE
STEUR
STOL
SWALUE
TEEKHOFF
TEERINK
TENOEVER
TEVEL
VAN HAASEL
VERSCHUUR
WAGE
WATER
WATERHAM
WEDDELINK
WOLF
WORMS
WULLEN
ZYDEN
oel
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Re: Mark on 17th c. spoon with images

Post by oel »

If a spoon is made out of a non precious metal you will not find the maker's mark name in  Dutch Goldsmiths' and Silversmiths' Marks and Names Prior to 1812, by Karel Citroen.

You stated your spoon is made out of brass and originally was silver plated
Please read:
https://www.mayfairgallery.com/blog/his ... ilverware/

Please read about the Dutch silver hallmark system and maker' s mark. For some more information see;
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=32028
Peter.
Brown46
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:24 pm

Re: Mark on 17th c. spoon with images

Post by Brown46 »

Hello Peter. Thanks for your reply.
Brown46
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:24 pm

Re: Mark on 17th c. spoon with images

Post by Brown46 »

I have just found the mark. The spoon does date to the 17th century but was tinned, so no silver involved!
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