Unknown marks

[jacobi16]

Can someone help me identify the marks I came accross on an old fashion handbag / purse.
I have looked everywhere to see if there are any other marks but can'nt find any.
I don't know if the mark in the shield is a country mark or a makers mark.



Thank you.

[sierraMadre]

Can you tell us anything about the purse? Where is it from? Approximately how old is it?

That chain on the purse looks fairly new to me. It doesn't seem to match the character of the purse.

That's about all I can tell you, maybe someone else can chime in?!

[dragonflywink]

Hi - your post has not even been up for a day, so please be patient. We are a volunteer group, in various worldwide time zones, and frankly, members check in as they please, so you may have to wait considerably longer than a few hours...

~Cheryl

[jacobi16]

Thank you for your quick responces.
Extra infomation for sierraMadre. I think the purse is from the period between 1890 and 1920 and comes from France but I have also seen examples from Austria.
As far as I can tell the chain is original as it has solderd links and connection rings without visable joint gaps.

Cheryl, "dragonflywink". I am in no hurry for information. Anything is welcome how ever long it takes to solve the puzzel or at least get more background on the marks.

[dognose]

Hi,

Welcome to the Forum.

The piece is a product of WMF (Württembergische Metallwarenfabrik). See: http://www.925-1000.com/silverplate_W3.html

The images of the marks you have posted is upside down. N, indicates a nickel base metal and OX, oxidized silver coating. Not 100% certain about the 'O', but I think it is a thickness of plating indicator.

Trev.

[dragonflywink]

Hi Jacobi, I was tired and misread, for some reason thought the second post was by the original poster - my apologies to both of you...

~Cheryl

[jacobi16]

Trevor "dognose" Thanks for the information. It is a great help.

Cheryl "dragonflywink" No problems we all have those times.

[Bahner]

Hello, the "O"-mark was used on tableware and flatware that were used daily. It stands for a somewhat thicker plating than indicated by the "I/O" mark. Use of the "O" was - roughly - from 1903 onwards until April 1926, when it was discarded. Regard, Bahner

[jacobi16]

Bahner, Thank you for the information. Maybe the O was used for more than only tableware and flatware as this is on a bag / purse. Even so it narrows the date line good deal for when it was made.
regards Jacobi.

[DianaGaleM]

"N" stands for "neusilber" (nickel silver), a.k.a., alpaka or alpaca, an alloy of copper, nickel, and sometimes zinc. Alpaka was the base metal for most of WMF silver-plated flatware. "O" stands for silverplating 50% thicker than the normal, "I/O."

[DianaGaleM]

Your handbag appears to be this one from WMF's 1925/26 Musterbuch (pattern book), on page 386:

[jacobi16]

Thank you DianaGaleM.
The year mentioned for the pattern book is good to have. It confirms my feeling as to how old the bag is.
I know it was silver plate / alpaca. Even though WMF did make silver objects it doesn't have the German silver marks so that was ruled out quickly.
Alpaca is generaly a thicker silverplate gage as it was often called "hotel silver". It didn't tarnish as fast and because of this it didn't have to be polished as often, which save time in the hotel world.

[Traintime]

Whoa! I can't comment on specific German practices, but there were two main reasons for thicker plating in "hotel" grade wares. Firstly, heavy wear from constant useage and contact (the same as might occur on this handbag). I have nothing from silver makers, but one restaurant ware china company noted that the investment in these heavy grade items was paid back after only seven sittings. Secondly, the need for appearance required almost daily polishing...it was an era where labor was worked to the bone with long hours and short pay. Hotels may have used contract firms to keep up wares. Railroad workers did their polishing in cars during hours when travellers were not present (photos exist). Large railroad shops maintained their own baths for re-plating of wares (there is film footage of this) on a regular basis, and all items in dining cars were inventoried after returning to the supply or victualing depot (in car yards) at the end of a run. For the reason you cite, less maintanance, stainless steel has largely killed off much of the silverplate industry and eliminated all the laborers who were related to the work and upkeep. That's progress in a sterling nutshell.

[jacobi16]

Thanks Traintime. It goes a lot futher than I thought.

[DianaGaleM]

For much/most of WMF's silver plated (versilbert) flatware, alpaka was the base metal. I'm personally aware of at least one big advantage to using alpaka: when the silver plating starts wearing off, this silverish base metal is not nearly as obvious as brass.

I can also personally attest to the fact that thicker silver plate makes a huge difference in appearance of over time. I have some pieces stamped as low as 40 or 60 that are badly worn (looking too awful to use) while, in contrast, some pieces in the same pattern and approximate vintage stamped 100 still look great, even though pushing a hundred years in age.

[DianaGaleM]

Among the vintage WMF catalogs I have (viz., 1898, 1906, 1911, 1925/26, 1938), only the 1925/26 musterbook included handbags.

[jacobi16]

Thanks for the extra information DianaGaleM.
I have been looking at as site called ascasonline.org.
They show all the stamps and marks with explanations to when and what they mean.
The deeper you go the more interesting it gets.

[DianaGaleM]

Just to clarify... Alpaca wasn't the plating medium, it was the base metal. The plating was silver. In the 1906 catalog, the designations were "I/O" (normal thickness) and "O" (50% thicker than normal). By the 1925/26 musterbuch, they were using 40, 60, and 90 to indicate thickness. The most common thickness is 90, but I have pieces as high as 100.

[DianaGaleM]

The style of the bag also indicates the 1920's. These "frame" bags, with cloth or especially beaded "pouches," were very popular with "flappers." Frame bags are popular to this day, but the style of the frame and pouch had changed by the 1930s. Try an online image search on " vintage frame bags."

[Traintime]

Charts in contributor's notes posted by Trev for WMF place "Alpaca" below the lowest grades of plating. It does not refer to this as unfinished nickel silver type items, but seems to place it as a level of plate near "light" grade. (Elsewhere, WMF ads indicate heavy plate was used for hotel grade/commercial wares...so Alpaca does not qualify.) See info here: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=51466

Do we have any reference from WMF that actually defines "Alpaca" as their "base metal"?