Trying to find out more about Birks sauceboat

[Estefats]

http://tinypic.com/r/o09uno/6



hi, I would like to find out more about my georgian style 3 legged sauceboat that I bought about 30yrs ago in Cornwall (UK). The mark underneath is very faded but appears to be identical to the very top row of the list of Birks marks that I managed to get hold of - that is: [BIRKS {curly lion} {head} and the date mark of either 1901 or 1903.

The issue seems to be that according to all my other research, if it doesn't have 'Sterling' marked on it somewhere, it isn't solid silver (I guess that seems obvious) but it doesn't have any of the EPNS type marking either. I have contacted a number of places about this, even Birks themselves but have not made much progress. Can anyone help please?

[dognose]

Hi,

Welcome to the Forum.

Your link not seem to be working properly, it's a common occurrence with links. Please embed your other images as you have done with the date letters.

Trev.

[oel]

Hi welcome to the forum.

Perhaps this could be useful, in a nutshell:
Birks is a Montreal based high end department store, still in business today and who produced their own silver ware in the late 19th and early 20th century.

Henry Birks & Sons of Canada
http://www.birks.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Birks
Little history about Canadian silver marks: imitation hall-marks spread in Ontario, while in Halifax a sequence of date- letters was used including an I for the firm of Birks & Son, of Montreal. Finally as from 1898 the use of fancy date-letters followed the London date-letter sequence. Art Deco tea set, teapot is marked R for 1932 (see London date marks), the creamer marked P for 1930



Oel.

[Estefats]

thanks for your advice so far, I think I have the link working now (no idea how I embedded the other image). What do you think the significance of the marks are - do you think it is Birks trying to make it look like genuine silver (but without the Sterling mark), or that it is something else altogether. It does seem very well made with lots of lovely detail like the claw toes on the feet. It also has four initials engraved in fancy writing.
http://i48.tinypic.com/o09uno.jpg

[oel]

Hi, your link only shows the sauce-boat no marks and we need to see those marks.

[Estefats]

sorry for confusion, the marks are too faded for my camera to pick up, however, the top row of the marks depicted on the Patent list appear to be identical with a 'd' apparently a date mark. What I don't understand is, if it only has these marks, is it likely to be silver or plate as a) it doesn't have 'Sterling' to identify it as silver but b)it doesn't have EPNS or similar to identify it as plate.
Are you able to help with this question please?

[Estefats]

many apologies for being so dim, have just found the macro setting on my camera - this shows the marks quite well, hope this helps!

http://tinypic.com/r/x3ydqw/6

[oel]

I have some doubts but it could be early Birks marks, like the date letter suggest 1901- 1903 and imitations of English marks and I do not know if it is of sterling standard or of a lower standard as of the act of 13th July, 1906 which came into force on 13th March, 1908 laid down that silverware must be .925 fine.

[Estefats]

thanks, that is very helpful, I was wondering if there was such a thing as a pre-sterling mark Birks piece and you might have answered that.

I can't work out what the funny castley type mark is but it is starting to look like it might be silver (even if of an indeterminate grade) of about 100 years old, rather than silver-plate? That does seem to start adding up (whereas what I was told elsewhere just didn't make sense to me). Do you know if there is any easy way to tell?

[oel]

Depending of where you are living I would suggest an Assay office or reliable bullion/pawn/jewelry shop. Assay offices have all the equipment and on request, if tested object meets legal standards, will punch a hallmark which could be very convenient for future reference and/or transactions. I advice ‘Waarborg Gouda’ and acid test can be reliable if done in combination with following methods:
- potentiometric titration for silver;
- (micro) cupellation for gold;
- X-Ray Fluorescence Spectrometry (XRF) for compositions of precious metal alloys. For more information see;


http://www.hallmarking.com/hallmarking/assaying


Or check;
http://www.theiaao.com/members/"

Oel

[Estefats]

thank you :¬)

[davidross]

Having seen some of Birks' pieces from around 1900, I have no doubt about the marks on the sauceboat indicating Birks sterling from the very first years of the 20th century.

I can't identify the mark that looks like a tower (or binoculars) but I have seen the three marks of lion rampant, bust (King George?), and date letter smallcase "d" on a 1901 spoon.

As Oel notes, generally speaking, throughout the 19th century and into the first years of the 20th century, Canadian silver hallmarking followed the British tradition. The word "sterling" only starts to appear on Canadian silver in the first years of the 20th century (mostly on souvenir spoons), and became common on all silver by the 1920s (but often still in conjunction with other marks suggestive of British hallmarks). In short, one would expect Birks sterling from ca 1900-1910 not to be stamped "sterling."

Oel is right, of course, that a reliable test is the surest way to determine silver content.

Regards

David Ross