Chalice with photos

[fb55chevy]

There are three markings on this chalice:

Circle - profile of a male, probably wearing a helmet with a visor, facing right

Oval - number 800, female profile facing right, triangle with point faced left toward the female profile

Square - Roman numberal II

The chalice is gold plated silver and engraved with B I B I T E E X H O C O M N E S (Drink ye all of it).

[Hose_dk]

a bit confusing you show a picture from a book - and hallmarks from another source??? confusing agenda you have or what?

Look in Polosh section for hallmarks.

[fb55chevy]

No, this is a studio photo of the chalice, and enlarged photos of the actual markings on the bottom of the same object (for some reason they show up in a gold color, though they are in silver).

[silverport]

Hello

As already »Hose_dk« mentioned, the case is indeed dubious!

A kind of 'model catalogue' photo from 1916 - and »the actual markings on the bottom of the same object«; which are from 1927 Sowjet Union!



Kind regards silverport

[fb55chevy]

I do not understand the confusion. The photograph was taken in 1946 [the number is 46, not 16] at a professional studio. The photos of the markings on this chalice were taken earlier this month. I have the chalice in hand, so you are seeing what I see.

Those who made a gift of the chalice in 1946 indicated that it had been purchased in 1868 and was not new then.

I would appreciate documentation of information provided on the markings.

[Hose_dk]

To take care of any doupht please post a picture of the object taken today - then we can discuss further.

[fb55chevy]

Here is a current photo.

[Qrt.S]

Привет!

What in the earth are you talking about. This is a Soviet piece from between 1927-1946. Read the marks from еру left.

1 Assaying mark for Moscow. A worker with a sledge hammer on his shoulder usually called "rabota" . The dot indicates Moscow assay office.
2 Another assaying mark for Moscow with the same worker's head. The delta sign for Moscow, purity 800 promille.
3 The Cyrillic letter "Л" mark denotes that the object was presented by a pawn-shop, bank etc. to the authorities to be marked with this "L" for a public sale e.g. on an auction or similar event. It was an official mark not earlier than as from 1908->.

Have a nive day

ЙкеюЫ

[Postnikov]

Hi -
a little confusing!
As already stated the marks are Sovietic from the years 1927 - 55 (in my sources). The Л mark and the 800 mark are an important indication that this object was not made in the USSR, was confiscated, "rehallmarked" to be legal and sold in a thriftshop or auction. The 800 mark is the proof that it is not Imperial - or Soviet Russian, it must be of some of the Western countrys.
The "legend" date it back to 1868 and "it was not new than"... Even 1868 or earlier silver was always marked - but not with 800/1000! Loth or an equivalent was the measure of that time. Where are the original marks? Are they erased? Traces of it or no marks? The Latin inscription "Bibite ex hoc omnes" (Drink all from this) was crudely and unprofessional made after the chalice´s purchase somwhere, sometime.

My conclusion with a bit of phantasy :-)

The chalice was handmade somewhere by an in Soviet times illegal protestant community (therefore unmarked and unprofessionaly engraved) in the years 1927-54, confiscated, rehallmarked, legaliced by the Л mark and sold in public. For the non protestants: Only protestants are allowed to drink wine in the Holy Communion ceremony!

Regards
Postnikov

[Qrt.S]

Well, the rabota mark period started on June 29 1927 and as from 1 June 1946 some additional marks and assay offices were established. This lasted to 7 January 1954 when again some minor changes were made. The rabota mark is abolished 7 may 1958 when the new mark a 5-star with the sickle and hammer inside is taken in use. You could say that the rabota period lasted 1927-1958.

Anyway, Postnikov's anticipation is a very plausible explanation. Here is another alternative.
Imperial Russia ordered from abroad and imported lots of unmarked silverware. The goods were taken to the customs and assayed properly and sold on the market. I have stated elsewhere that you might find Russian silver with only an assayer's mark and no maker's mark (like this chalice). That is an indications of imported goods. Such objects are not made in Russia but abroad but where they were made, is more or less impossible to know today.
Anyway, after the revolution such unmarked imported silver goods probably "float around" so to say. It was impossible to sell such merchandise officially in public. Maybe on the black market but that's another story. Therefore such objects were assayed and possibly as this chalice seen above was too. Now it could be sold in public without consequences. The Л indicates that this happened. This is only my theory and I cannot verify it, but is is as good as any other theory anyway.

FYI! Please note that a Russian made object must unconditionally carry a maker's mark before it can be assayed.

A third possibility is that the original marks are de facto destroyed. I have seen at least Russian objects with destroyed imperial marks and remarked with Soviet marks, it happened in those days.

[fb55chevy]

Thanks so much for your time and expertise in thinking this through. Let me give you more background information.

In 1946 a prominent Georgia Baptist minister made a three-week tour of Russia as part of a war relief delegation. While there he visited many sites, including Moscow, Minsk, Leningrad, Stalingrad, and Tbilis, and when possible he met with Baptist leaders. On the last day of his visit (when he also presented Stalin with gifts), he preached at the Moscow Baptist Church and was presented this chalice as a gift of goodwill. He kept a diary during his visit, and he wrote articles that were published in the Atlanta papers.

He stated that the chalice dates from 1868, when the first Baptist church in Russia was constituted in Tbilisi. It was in 1868 that a rich merchant, Mr. Nikita Veronin, who had been baptized in August of 1867, purchased and presented the chalice to this new church. It appears that the chalice was used in observance of the Lord’s Supper at the church in Tiblisi until 1928, at which time a Georgian minister was called to pastor the First Baptist Church, Moscow, the largest Baptist church in the Soviet Union. The Baptists of Tbilisi asked him to accept the chalice as an expression of their love for him and Baptists of Moscow and all of Russia. So this chalice had come to be a symbol of fellowship amongst Russian Baptists and was their most cherished possession. With the Latin engraving, it is assumed to have been crafted in Europe.

On the underside of the base there are no other official looking hallmarks; however, there are other markings worth noting.

There are areas that appear to have been ground down (ridges) or scratched through (thinner scribbling marks). I wonder if, in one area, some indentions have been filled with silver.

In very fine print there is a Cyrillic I (a "backwards" N) and a W (with the top tips of the W pointed down toward the inside of the letter).

With a rougher engraving object there seems to be a 65 or a C5 inscribed more deeply into the silver.

How would this information fit with your the scenarios you have outlined?

[Postnikov]

Hi -
there are two "historys" of the chalice. One of the donation etc. and one of the roots of the chalice. The donation history is written down and more or less authentic and proofable. The roots of the chalice are in the dark.
All we know is the statement of the minister, that it dates back to 1868 and the donator Mr. Voronin. Further is known that the silver content was later tested by Sowiet authorities as 800/1000 in contrary to the Russian standard 84 or 88 Zolotniki (875 0r 916/1000) - that means that it must come from somewhere in Europe. As most of the Babtists were German or had German roots it is impossible that the chalice was bought around this time because of the silvercontent 800/1000. In the year 1868 and before the silverstandard in Europe was more or less Loth (15,14,13 or 12 loth = 937.5 or 875 or 812 or 750 - but not 800/1000). After January 1st 1888, the silvercontent 800 was obligatory by law. Either a misunderstanding or typo. The "foreign" marks must have been erased otherwise one could read them today.
The engraving is in the style a silversmith in Tblisi would engrave a text he could not read/understand - with Latin letters he was not accustomed to. Maybe you should have a look on "Georgian silver and its workmanship" to understand what I want to express.
To speak about the other marks is only possible when I see a photo.
I think this explanation gives sense if not new aspects show up.

Regards
Postnikov

[fb55chevy]

Postnikov,

When the chalice was moved from Tbilisi to Moscow and the hallmarking was made, would the Soviets have tested the silver and truly known its content, or would they have chosen 800 to be "good enough" as a description?

One other thing I failed to mention is that the pastor who took the chalice from Tbilisi to Moscow was almost certainly related to the donor Voronin through his mother. The exact relationship is being checked. This lends some credence to why the chalice was removed from the original church.

[Qrt.S]

fb55chevy! You have not been fair to us. In the very first beginning you state that there are three marks on object and that's all. Now you tell us that there are after all other marks on the bottom!!!! Wouldn't it had been fair that you both told and showed those marks in the first insert, I ask you? How do you expect us to give a proper answer without knowing all facts?

I also wonder what do you actually want to know because you already seem to know it all????

Now show the marks on the bottom!!!

[Postnikov]

HI fb55Schevy -

maybe it could be useful for you to go to Wikipeda (Babtists in Russia) and read a little unless you are up to date with the history.

Regards
Postnikov

[Postnikov]

Hi again -

forgot to mention that assay offices have only one reason: to check if the silver is according to the law. How do you think they did it? By guessing? Asking people on the street? Google is your friend!

Do you know some relatives of the invoved persons? Wherefrom you have your informations? If you give no serious infomations and provide sharp Photos this thread is something like a quiz.
I am no quizmaster!

Regards
Postnikov

[fb55chevy]

I am new at this and learning as I go. I started out seeing only what looked official, and this morning when I searched over the underside of the chalice, I was surprised that there was more. I will have to take more photos and post them later this week.

I am deeply appreciative of the help I am receiving with this. The existence of this chalice was no longer known by those in the Republic of Georgia, since it was moved to Moscow in 1928. It was accepted as a gift in 1946 by an Atlanta minister, now deceased, who took careful notes about its history. These notes tied it back to Tbilisi, and I had hoped the markings would define the place of its creation.

Through a Georgia-to-Georgia Baptist partnership, I became a friend of the Archbishop of the Evangelical Baptist Church in the Republic of Georgia several years ago. While he was working on a dissertation at Oxford earlier this year, he came across the name of the minister who visited the Soviet Union in 1946, and he inquired about him. The Baptist archives at the university where I work has the personal papers of this man, including a diary, photos, and articles published about the trip. While doing preliminary research, I located photos of this chalice and eventually found the chalice itself. Steps are being taken to return the chalice to its native home. He and I are both interested in providing as much history about the piece as possible for his people to understand where it has been and how it was found.

Again, many thanks for your efforts on our behalf. This is a remarkable story.

[Postnikov]

Hi -

try to make sharp photos of all marks (scratchmarks etc.) and we will do our best best to reveal all secrets there are.

Regards
Postnikov

[oel]

Hi All,

Chevy 55 stated in his first request for information about the chalice: The chalice is gold plated silver and engraved with B I B I T E E X H O C O M N E S (Drink ye all of it).To me it looks like the shown hallmarks are gilded to. Ergo, the chalice has been gilded, as it supposed to be, after hallmarking in the USSR.
Question, are the spots, of the perhaps removed marks & filed areas, gold plated?
Could you please show us a complete photo of the base with all his markings?
The 800 guarantees a minimum of 800 fineness. It is not uncommon to see a lower minimum fineness mark on a higher fineness piece of silver. If you are in doubt and really like to know, you could have the silver chalice tested again, to establish it’s through fineness.

Regards,

Oel

[Postnikov]

HI oel -
in Russia existed a separate mark for silver not corresponding to the fineness ordered by law in an octogal cartouche! НП = Не соответствуег... Mostly used for imported silver.

Regards
Postnikov