Identification Help

[NorGib]

Require some help in identfying the following marks on some cutlery.

The follwoing info is placed in an indented box.

20 DWTS Per Doz E.P.N.S. 90
Made in Sheffield England A1

Thanks in advnace.

[silverport]

Hello »NorGib«

Welcome to the Forum.

»925-1000« request you very kindly to take notice of the »Posting Requirements«; please look here:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10

There is included a brief guide »How to add Images«. That's very easy - that it is the truth you could already see here in »925-1000«.

Please, the marks image must be a very clear photograph - not blurry.

Please let stay that image in the chosen Host as long as ever possible - for future readers too, I thank you there fore in advance!

Kind regards silverport

[2209patrick]

How to Add Images

Posting Requirements

[NorGib]

Trust you will be able to view picture

[silverport]

Yes; I see “some thing”

Hello »NorGib«

I don’t know if you could imagine if you would get such kind of information? If you were my assistant, I would fire you immediately for ever.

I had requested you » Please, the marks image must be a very clear photograph - not blurry. «

But I will be polite now:

Unknown Sheffield maker!

Maybe an underdog there — otherwise he would show up initials, or name, or a sign for identification!

In reality he is much more as an underdog — he is a crook! Why?

Because for the English speaking market is struck the indication »A1«— and for the Continental Europeans the there usual and well known »90«.

20 : 12 = 1 2/3 dwt’s per piece = ca. 2.6 g per piece — in Continental Europe: 90 g : 24 pieces = 3.75 g per piece.

Flatware plated silver quality: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=19757
A1 = Superior Quality = 32 gram on 12 pieces = 2 2/3 gram per table fork or table spoon

Continental European signification of numerals on Electro galvanic plated objects; please read this information:
http://www.925-1000.com/a_platenumbers.html

He show with his indication that he “warrant” (?) to have used 3.75 g per piece — but maybe his British “warranted” (?) 2.6 g per piece are also not correct?

Kind regards silverport

[NorGib]

Hello SIlverport,

Thank you for being polite and for your quick response to my querry.

Before you fire me please accept my appologies for the image but it was my first attempt at uploading an image within this forum. I shall endeavour to produce better images in future as I have further querries once I have researched a Mark.

Am I to understand from your reply that the items even though they are marked with the A1 are not of any value due to the discrepancy of the markings?

NorGib

[silverport]

»A1« or »AI« is »extra strong Plate« or Superior Quality in the UK, USA ...

Hello »NorGib«

I accept yours apologize - but please understand, that the marks must be shown clear, as the answer too.

The "value":

In yours case it's a dubious marking - I've already explained the difference by calculation.

If the producer has really plated as »A1«, then he has produced the best offer you could get in English speaking market area.

But the Continental Europeans have made in relation a »better« quality - I haven't known this big difference before, until I've got a detailed catalogue.

I'm a collector - also of plated cutlery. The criteria of valuation for a collection are different to them of daily use.

For daily use the criteria of valuation are always the primary ones - because these items are made there fore, to be useful.

In yours case they've to fulfil yours criteria - if these are "normal"; I guess, that they are so.

For a collector, well in relation to his criteria, they could have some value too - a document of an anonymous producer and his marketing politics.

In Germany in the late twenties of last century, two big cutlery competitors had a long lasting court case - the real winner was the market!

In the beginning of plated production around 1845-1850 were neither criteria fixed - by time and while the competition became the regulator.

In Continental Europe it became later usual to enlarge step by step the used weight of silver.

A long lasting time were problems every where to have always sufficient current. When this problem was solved, it was usual to use about 60 gram per 24 items.

Then after, for reason of differentiation in the market, and especially for the Eastern market (e.g. Austria-Hungary and Russia), they used 84 gram per 24 items. Crooks; maybe of course?

Protests and other criteria made then in Continental Europe 90 gram per 24 items the Standard. After WWI the luxury version was 100 gram; and after WWII 150 gram.

Well there have also existed offers for 20 gram, 40 and 60 gram per 24 items, for exceptional use.

You see here with that these two market area in a kind of distance between the Globe and Moon.

As a New-be you would get by time and while the experience, that from answered questions rise new ones.

Here in »925-1000« is in between such a lot of knowledge collected, that it is worth otherwise boring hours to kill by searching around in the now nearly 42,000 posted questions and answers.

Then you would start, to understand my feeling, if we are getting presented blurry images, but being requested to give well sounded answers.

But for you and the future readers too, the almost worth case is: Missing images! Often they are already missing the next day after an answer.

Let step you further in yours collectors life.

Kind regards silverport

[silverport]

Hello »NorGib«

Thank you!

It's a good step too!

Now I hope, it's a long while of very informative value also for others.

Kind regards silverport

[NorGib]

Hello Silverport,

Could you advise what the 15 DWTS mean?

NorGib

[silverport]

There is some thing wrong in the former information!

Hello »NorGib«

Maybe I must let stay my former critic and »fire« you?

You’ve informed first:

20 DWTS Per Doz E.P.N.S. 90
Made in Sheffield England A1

But just now I’ve taken a look on details:

15 DWTS PER DOZ. E.P.N.S. ?0 [maybe stand there not 90 but: 30]
MADE IN SHEFFIELD ENGLAND A1


That’s different — or there are different items of cutlery with different indications?

Already with this, yours own example, you could see the importance of correct basic information!

If it is 15 : 12 = 1.25 dwt’s per piece = 1.94 gram = ca. 2 gram per piece

Also if yours cutlery wasn’t struck for the export to the Continent, here with you could see a differentiation between »BBB« Barker Brothers, Birmingham, and yours »A1«:

BBB’s »A1« = 2 2/3 gram per piece of table fork or table spoon
Yours »A1« = 2 gram per piece

You’ve promised to have more items, and questions — but be more correct as you was now!

»Input = Output«

»925-1000« is a phenomenon: »Input of minor quality — Output of higher quality«

Kind regards silverport