www.925-1000.com

We need help!

We purchased the items illustrated in the provided photos and have done our best to research them. So far, we have determined that the items were constructed by Madsen & T. Baagoes company. However, we are trying to figure a few other things out. We know that it is in a Danish style, but we are unsure where it was produced. One thing that throws us off completely are the inscriptions on it which reads, "Minne of Far" (I think this is German which means love or love of country or something like that) and also, it appears to have a possible date inscribed which reads exactly, "18 23/10 91." It appears that the inscription may have been applied on October 23, 1891, which causes us to wonder when, exactly, these items were created. Was this prior to October 23, 1891, the actual date of creation, or none of the above?

Each piece is very ornate with faces carved into the handles of all and also on the spout of the creamer. Do these faces represent anything significant? If so, what do they signify?

Each piece has the M&T.B mark and "NS" (we have yet to determine what this signifies), but other marks are added to a couple of the pieces, such as a circle around the B on the creamer; the sugar bowl has 2 small marks which resemble either a number 11 or the letter N or H and a circle below the M&T.B mark which appears as if it used to have a symbol inside, but is indistinguishable.

We know that this is probably only silverplate, but if these items were created in the 1800's with its great and beautiful craftsmanship.
(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )


If anyone out there has any answers, please send us a reply.

Thanks a bunch!

To view our pics, click on the links provided:



http://tinypic.com/r/rcikgl/5
http://tinypic.com/r/2wrkidy/5
http://tinypic.com/r/vyawrl/5
http://tinypic.com/r/k4we35/5
http://tinypic.com/r/205th12/5
http://tinypic.com/r/2dawo45/5
http://tinypic.com/r/f06t91/5
http://tinypic.com/r/14o7n9h/5[/url]

Hello

Always: Welcome in »925-1000« with your questions.

Let’s start with the inscription »Minne of Far« = »Memory of Fa(the)r«. Given date of 23 October 1891 would be an anniversary: of birth?; of marriage?; maybe time of to be a professional? … It seems to me that it was a very personally date in that family only — not nationwide. Because the here used formula of words is very familiarly, and not in an “official” tone.

My compliment to your primary attempt’s in research; also for your description, and last but not least on your expressive photos of details and marks! That helps a lot.

Yes, your set is signed with marks of »Madsen & T. Baagøe« of Copenhagen, Denmark.

»Madsen & T. Baagøes Electroplet og Nysølvvarefabrik« of Copenhagen, Denmark, was founded in 1874; (Electroplet = galvanized; og = and; Nysølvvarefabrik = nickel silver).

Their first activity was import of galvanized flatware and hollowware from abroad, e.g. possibly from factories in north of Germany (Koch & Bergfeld, Bremen offered so called »Façonware« from some models of her own model range of flatware and hollowware to Galvanizer’s; hence you could find K&B models with other »maker’s marks« as well).

In 1882 »M&T.B« start to invest in machines and tools for to could produce an own product range. These were galvanized in a workshop, and distributed in Denmark.

In between they had got experience in electro plating. Also their commercial success made it necessary, to have a bigger and well organized production.

1885 was their new manufactory established in the “Tordenskjoldsgade 30” of Copenhagen — with her own electricity, made by a gas motor. In that time it was necessary to be autarkic; because the electroplating production process needs an ever permanent stable current. Also they had invested in more and new friction presses, dies and tools.

1888 they’ve had about 40-50 workers in their factory, and about 35 home workers, mainly women for polishing.

Their success made it necessary, to remain autarkic, to have their own drawing office, die and tool maker, lathe operator for spinning parts of hollowware, turner, mounting and solder, grinder, galvanizer, engraver, chaser, and polisher.

By her own productions experience, they made some things better as before, and invented some new methods, which afterwards were patented. In between they became well known for her products stylistic appearance, and durability of flatware, and hollowware in all Scandinavian countries.

»M&T.B« product range of flatware and hollowware model growing out to become a full range.

Your items bear the engraved date of 23 October 1891 — for »M&T.B« a period of important soaring, to become an economically strong position: Still going strong — until 1973 = 99 year.

20 year before, in 1871 Schleswig and Holstein, former parts of Denmark, became part of German Emporium.

Preferred style of German Emporium, and nearly all surrounding countries, was »Altdeutsch« - a hotchpotch of styles; Renaissance of Renaissance, … I personally baptized this »Art Eclecteau«.

Well, also I name it »Art Eclecteau«, items quality in production details and in their visual appearance is well done by their chaser and engraver!

Let’s now take a look on several details: In principle it is a system of constructive equal zones with stylistic equal surfaces; a modular assembly concept.

Base cone = same dimension by creamer and sugar bowl; enlarged that for the coffee pot.

Fluted bottom = same dimension by creamer and sugar bowl; enlarged that for the coffee pot.

Bowl’s truncated cone = same dimension by creamer and sugar bowl; enlarged that for the coffee pot.

Mouth, or drain zone = different form and dimension by creamer and sugar bowl.

Coffee pot gets a neck and head, like as an old styled radio transmission tower. Head’s lower part could be the same as the upper part of the sugar bowl?

Coffee pot’s tap hinged = maybe coffee pots tap was some thing similar as missing tap of sugar bowl.

Spout of coffee pot is singularly = creamer’s spout is singularly too.

Handle’s = same dimension by creamer and sugar bowl; enlarged for the coffee pot.

Techniques:

Base cone’s = lathe made

Fluted bottom’s = maybe also lathe made — hence the “circular” »marks«?

Bowl’s truncated cone = rolled (or maybe cast?).

Mouth or drain zone = lathe made (sugar bowl); cast (creamer’s spout).

Coffee pot’s neck and head: lathe made.

Coffee pot’s and sugar bowl’s taps: lathe made; with cast finials.

Coffee pot’s hinge: maybe cast.

Spout of coffee: cast.

Handles: cast.

All mounted: »hard soldered« with hard-solder or »silver soldered« with silver-solder (look topic: viewtopic.php?t=11116

Basic material (punches signification in this case): NS = Nickel silver; a copper-zinc-nickel alloy.

Electro plated with pure silver of 999/1,000 fineness — gram age unknown; maybe indicated by yet not identified significations of letters or numerical.

Yes, your set is signed with marks of »Madsen & T. Baagøe« of Copenhagen, Denmark. But it could be that your items are made by e.g. Koch & Bergfeld, Bremen; offered as so called »Façonware« to »M&T.B« - imported to, and galvanized in Copenhagen?

The style of »Art Eclecteau« was from about 1848 to 1914 (from about 1896 on parallel to Art Nouveau) en vogue here and there, in Bremen and Copenhagen = it isn’t a »Danish style«; sorry, and these items aren’t »typically Danish« as well.

Kind regards silverport

Hello,

Many thanks to you for your extensive research regarding our tea set. Your reply was greatly welcome and highly informative. We did our very best to research these items only to reach dead ends.

I do have another question, however...from your expert point of view, what nationality(s) do you feel that my set, if being of Eclecteau Art and not of a particular style such as Danish, was the major influence(s) in the creation of our tea set, and do you think that this set is unique or do you feel that these were commonly produced? I ask this because I have never seen anything like it and am completely fascinated by its intricate beauty. I can stare at it for hours, constantly finding new and interesting details (such as a butterfly on one piece and not on the others) to the point of becoming mesmerized by its intricacy.

We are very passionate about learning all that we can about our tea set as we initially believed it to be antique and is, without a doubt, very interesting. We know that there is a great and wonderful story surrounding every antique, but this one completely captured and sparked our interest.

We greatly appreciate your devotion in researching our tea set and thoughtfully responding to our posting. Thank you ever so much, and we hope to hear from you again soon.

Most sincerely and warm regards,
Raymond & Pamela

Hello all

For reason of to get a more sounded knowledge of Madsen & T. Baagøe, Elektroplet- og Nysølvvaarefabrik, Københaven, I've looked to find a little bit more background information’s.

Here is my result; look here: viewtopic.php?p=46167#46167

It was an informative challenge for me.

There fore: Thank you!

Kind regards silverport

Hello Raymond & Pamela

Thank you that I had a possibility to serve by my assistance, for to get a bit more of sounded knowledge on your items.

Yes, well your set is full of interesting details in design - and in signs of production, there are maybe questions as well?

Sorry there fore that I couldn’t state: Yes, it is a unique product of Madsen & T. Baagøe.

This style of »Altdeutsch« (Old German) or »Art Eclecteau« was a Middle European stylistic tendency of about 66 year = from 1848 to 1914.

One of the high tides has started when France lost in 1871 the French-German-War; and Wilhelm I was on 18 January 1871 in Versailles Château of Paris declared to be German Emperor.

»Kriegsgewinnler« (War profiteer) became influence and liked to live their new social position in new surroundings as well. Architects, Constructors, Cabinet maker, Decorator, … Jeweller, Silversmiths, Metal ware factories, … coffin maker — all made some thing in »Altdeutsch«.

Influences grow out, like a “Black Plague” — more or less all Middle European nations were infected. 1896 until 1914 the Art Nouveau was late, and also only short time a stylistic novelty; with an attempt to change lifestyle as well — women started to ride bicycles; but driving licences, voting rights and University remained men’s area. For what? = 1 August 1914, start of World War I.

That is the background of time, your set was designed and made — I guess, around 1880 to 1890. Who made it? I don’t know — I mentioned already, it could be also »K&B«, Bremen, plated in Copenhagen. I live here in Exile.

So my archive isn’t here, where I could search: Where have I seen before a similar »Grotesque« as on the spout of your creamer?

I remember very diffuse, that I’ve seen it on an object, designed under supervision of Heinrich von der Cammer, responsible 31 January 1874-31 Dezember 1902 for Koch & Bergfeld, Bremen product range.

To could say for sure, that it is a full fabricated product of Madsen & T. Baagøe, it’s necessary to make much more research in Archives, Museum … Maybe need to take measuring of details … Sorry, I wouldn’t do this. Be happy as you already practice!

And by the way, your one is made of better quality then others in similar time range. In England from about 1850 on (1851 First World Exhibition, and 1873 Vienna World Exhibition) became articles, made from »Britannia« alloy (of Pewter-Antimony) her “high rise”. Cheap ones were made from Pewter-Lead only, and then after electro plated.

Your Set could be the only one on the Globe — but there could existing more, many more; especially by similarity of »Style«.

By the way, I hadn’t answered before: The inscriptions on your set are in Danish.

Kind regards silverport

Let me add a few comments to the above very interesting news. Also new to me.
MTB has a high quality in silver plating. Often when I find pieces where the silver plating is not worn of it is marked MTB. So the plating is of high quality.
The "far" is not short for Father - far is the danish word for father. To clarify from the above.
The danish style - "Senempire og Chr 8 stil" Late empire and Christian (king) nr 8 with the name Christian was around 1830 - 1840 and it was corresponding with the timeframe og the german Biedermeier.
After Chr 8 style we had "nyrokoko og historicisme" (neo rococo and historisismus) 1850 to approx 1895 followed by "skønvirke og jugend" - where skønvirke is the danish expression of jugend.
Therefore your the-set has a Danish style. After Chr. 8 style we re-invented the (ny rokoko) neo rococo taking the expression from late 1700 and making them more rococo - moro rococo than during the rococo.
Late 1800dreds more "ny-stil" ne--style. Neo Louiz XVI as the fist (primarily used for furniture in living room) followed by neo-baroc, neo renaissance, neo gotic. The various styles are used ramdomly - so you use element from every style.
Danish name - "Stilforvirring" (used afterwards because you cannot determine time period as one could before. Every style was used. One style for each room. Neo rococo livingroom and bedroom, maurisk or oriental style in the gentlemans room, at the entrance old-nordic style (from the vikings)
Sets like this coffee, sugar, cream the and a try was very common.
Silver had been so expensive that the worker had not been able to buy. Now plated silver was available - still very expensive but now afforable to the middle class and working class.
This is a typical gift - and the inscription tells us that this was a gift from father (+ mother) to their daughter. I could be a wedding gift but most likely it was given to a young maid before wedding. The girl collected stuff for her marrige. Spoons, linned, house hold etc. And at some occation (18 year - 20 year) she received this from her parrents.
Date most likely = to production.

Ant the item was given to the daughter. In case before wedding it was afterwards stored in a chest with the rest of her wedding stuff. Knives forkes linnet etc.
After the weddig it would be not be stored away, but she now had her own home and it would be set at display as the most presius item of the household. On display in on a sideboard in a romm only used at special occations. Sunday, bithday, christmas etc. But that room would never be used on a ordinary day. "Den fine stue" the fine (prominent) room. When ever entertaining visitors that would be done in that room. The silver would be shining - it was maintained shining. And coffee, the suger etc would be served from that set and everyone would admire and pay (oral) tribute to the woman for the fine coffee set.
And it would be used again and again - always shining and well kept. On display - most likely on an open sideboard or if possible behind a glass door. Similar to this. I will return one day when i find a picture. My mother has a sideboard that once was part of a sofa. But she lives 400km from me so it might take some time.

Hello Hose_dk et all

Thank you for these very informative additional remarks!

It’s again an example for the value of Insider’s who have had open eyes and brain. I haven’t lived in Denmark; so I miss a lot of individual knowledge; Danish humans collect from birth on.

Production’s quality of here shown items is in Raymond & Pamela’s photos visible.

Kind regards silverport

Thank you so much, Hose_dk, for your much needed and very interesting information! I had originally thought that it may have been given as a wedding gift for someone, but there is no way of really knowing for sure; however, I figured that something this ornate and beautiful back in those days would have possibly been given as wedding gifts.

I do hope that you have had the opportunity to view our photos of the set. It is in excellent condition with the exception of the missing sugar bowl lid and I could not begin to imagine what a set like this would be worth today since you say that these were quite common back in those days. What really baffles me is that the entire set has remained together (with the exception of the missing lid) after all these years! It is really amazing to me that it remains as an entire set and I am so proud to own it!

Once again, thank you for your very helpful and much needed insight.

Sincerely,
Raymond & Pamela

I thought you may wish to know a little family history regarding M&T.B. T.B stands for Thoedor Baagoe. I am the great grandaughter of Theodor. Thoedor was born. June 27,1846 in Bregninge, Holbaek, Denmark. He came from a long line of intelectuals from, Theologists, Merchants, Professors, Engineers and in turn produced a fine line of Intelectuals here in USA. He attended Copenhagan University for Business. Thoedor was a very gentle man whom cared deeply for others feelinng and rights. It is said in family history that Theodor payed his employees well and gave them 4 payed days off for family deaths, payed holidays. All the things most employees do now. It is said he had a mind of the future but with the biggest heart anyone kneww. Theodor Passed in 1920.

Madsen, I do not know much of at the moment, I am trying to research this.

M&T.B was supose to be passed on to my grandfather Hans Johan Thoedor Baagoe, He did not wish to take on the business. Instead he was here in the United States creating and implementing his own Patents. When my Grandfather came to America, he changed his last name to the angle-saxon version of Baagoe (Meaning Isles of Beaches) to Beechlyn. If you Look on the internet for either "J.T.Beechlyn" or "John T. Beechlyn" you will find about 75 patents under his name. He worked with Camera Lighting ( For Movies), Submarine Radar sensors, Along with a long list to much to list here, John really enjoyed Magnetics. John was a self taught Physicist.

Theodor had 3 children :

Ellen Baagoe, Born: 1876, Kobenhaven, Died 1921: Ellen only visited USA, she resided in Copenhagan. Family history states Ellen died of loneliness for her father.Never Married
Hans Johan Theodor Baagoe, Born 1878, Kobenhaven, Died 1947 in New Jearsy, USA. 1 child, my mother
Knud Baagoe Born, 1885 Kobenhaven, Died 1921 from a drowning in Lynne, Massachusetts - Saving a childs life from frozen waters. Hadn't Married

I'd like to share a personal story reguarding a peice that Theodor had made. There is a peice (the horse) Theodor created, Well my grandfather (John) going through his fathers things after he passed, brought back to America the horse ( a proto-type for that line) in 1920 in case he were to have children. It was planned for the first born. That being my mother, He gave it to her at the age of 4 (1936). For months she slept with it everynight, carried it with her everywhere. Later it was placed within a bookcase in her room, how she charrished that horse. To this day she she still embarks on this memory with tears.

She was playing in her room with her friends. the knocked over the book case and the horse broke off its plate stand. She allow anyone to take it away. She slept with the peices for months. She kept it till she was 17 years old, she was going to have it repaired. There was a fire in her mothers home and there in that fire she lost the plate. She was able to selvage the horse, she had that untill aftter she was married. She hadn't been married but a few weeks, not yet being able to retrieve all her personals from her mothers home, the home was broken into, along with many Baagoe family potriats, the horse was gone. She remembers her father with the fondest of memories.

There is a little of the personal history og M&T.Baagoe.

Hi Baagoegranddaught,

Welcome to the Forum.

Many thanks for taking the time to post this information. I sure it will be of interest to many.

You will, I'm sure, like to read this post: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=20018 regarding the history of the company.

Please keep us informed of any further information that comes to light.

Regards Trev.

Dear Baagoegranddaught,

Thank you ever so much for your response. The information you provided was very interesting but also very sad. Being a very sentimental person myself, I am so sorry to hear that your mother lost her beloved horse as some things can never be replaced. What was the horse constructed of, and was it the only one ever made?

Hello Mrs. »Baagoegranddaught«

Many thanks for yours additional information on the family background of Madsen & Theodor Baagøe.

Often we know beside some body’s work only:

Name: xxxx, born: xxxx, Master: xxxx, died: xxxx

Now you gave us highly valuated additional information, which I haven’t found during my research in spring last year. “Danish” is a kind of secret language — making translation mistakes is a burden.

Also of high value is yours information on Family Name change (Baagøe > Beechlyn) — that is a steady problem of through this phenomenon becoming grey-haired genealogist.

It seems, that to be a »Baagøe« is a kind of “Insignia” being inventive and social oriented — but always never should be forgotten the women of them too!

I thank you personally for yours contribution — and wish you a healthy future, not only in 2011!

Kind regards silverport

Good Evening to all of you

Thank you so very much for all your responces. I was so thrilled to hear from you. It kind of feels like a "M&T.Baagoe family". Though I am of Numbers, Physics and of a Engineering mind, I have never lost my heart. I will respond to each of you, starting with:

Dognose
Thank you so for all the information you have put together. I will be more than glad to share any infomation I can.

RaynPam

I too thank you for your responce, please never loose your sentmental side, cherish it always. I will ask mother this week what the horse was made of, As for if it was the only one, no. The one my mother had was the first one made. GGrandfather(Theodor) made them for his children, than it became one of there lines. I know that John had told mother when she was young that theodor had # 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 the first 5 so that the children would not fight over them. Theodor kept 0 to replace if one of them were broken. I have no idea what happened to the other 4. I just know my mother had 0. How many others were made, I do not have the knowledge of this , I wish I did.

Silverpot

Please keep in mind, as far as I know, It was only John who changed his last name too "Beechlyn" as for the other 3 children (Look below-I founf information of another one) Kept the Name Baagoe. If you are part of Ancestry.com You will find it on page 2 of John's Beechlyn " U.S. Passport Applications, 1795-1925" It is written sideways in ink.

As for "Baagoe-is a kind of “Insignia” being inventive and social oriented" I thank you for the thought. Too be very honest, our family was very much intuned with education, but what was more inbedded with us was, Heart.

My mother quoted her father as I grew up " The heart will carry all the knowledge forward with warmth, justice and kindness, and most of all the compassion for those who have not the knowledge, share it well with the world around you. Never let the mind and knowledge carry all the weight, for you will loose the purpose of knowledge, knowledge is only a small part of humanity."

I would of never remember that word for word, except I have a letter from mother to copy it from.

For genology purposes, I am sorry, I know this is not a geneology Blog, but researching the Baagoe line, It may be of interest,

that Theodor Baagoe Married:
Marie Magnesia Frederikke Stennese, Born Jan 5, 1850 in Rosklide, Sjalland, Denmark, Died 1888 in copehagen, denmark

I found yesterdday another daughter of theodor from mothers information. Mother is getting on in age 78 and it is hard for her to remember everything all at once. I get Tid-Bits.

Inger Charollte Baagoe Born 6 September, 1882 Kobenhaven. She married a Christian Krag born 25 April, 1876 in Vildbjerg, Ringkobing, Denmark.

With all my warmth and sincerity, I give all who wish know, all I know of this subject with the deepest of heart.

Thank you all for your kindness

Hi everyone, this is my first pst to this site. I hope this is a good place to start with this information and inquiry.

I have a small fiddle back spoon "with wings", 5 inches long with marks on the reverse of the handle as follows:

The number 19 in a circle. In an oval T. BAAGOES (a fork) and EFTFLGRF. There is no reference to Madsen.

There is also an interesting monogram on the front which I can describe as an S, a large A, an L and perhaps a P.

After much searching for "Baagoes" I think I have confirmed it is probably Baagoe S (for Silver?). I'm guessing EF etc. is Electro Fabrication....... .

I have read what is available about Theodor/Thoedor Baagoe. Was there a period when he was on his own without Madsen? Can anyone estimate the date of the spoon and perhaps whether the initials stand for a Hotel or Shipping Line or Restaurant?

Thank you for any help provided.

Allen Cannon, Miami Florida