Please help me identify marks on this bowl

[pbaird]

Please help me identify the marks on this bowl that I recently purchased at a garage sale. The seemingly silver bowl is footed with a handle.

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!


http://s302.photobucket.com/albums/nn101/plbaird/

http://s302.photobucket.com/albums/nn10 ... rlingbowl/
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[fatso]

I have a sterling silver loving cup with similar hallmarks T&J Maltese Cross.
Obviously from the same workshop of silversmith in Malta, an island state and now part of EU.
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[dragonflywink]

Ummm, looks more like late 19th century silverplate to me, most likely British.

~Cheryl
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[fatso]

Well, I took a magnet test(-), filed off a bit on the rim(no obvious yellow colour but I need to look in daylight). Finally a drop of muriatic acid- greenish colour. So do not know what to think now, except to confirm that the same hallmarks, crispy and well struck. As the thing does weigh some 278 Gm I will have to use 2 sets of precision scales I have(100 Gm and 200Gm) to set up contraption to test for silver by hydrostatic method. Too much for me now but watch this space.
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[pbaird]

Fatso,

Thanks for replying! I wonder if you could please post a picture of T&J with Maltese Cross. I've now spent some exhausting hours working on this identification. This sight is wonderful! Kind, knowledgeable people helping each other.

Thanks, pbaird
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[fatso]

Below is the link to required hallmark: http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51 ... eCross.jpg
and the pretty lovers cup so marked:
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51 ... Silver.jpg
And so much for the good news. Now for the bad:
I have exerted this morning myself setting up the contraption consisting of two precision scales(100Gm and 200Gm=300Gm in total), a lightweight bar, thread and a paper clip to hook my pretty cup to. All carefully weighed then large pot of water put underneath so the bloody cup would float without swinging around. Not as simple method as described in this forum when you have a basic weight of lovers cup at 278Gm, almost at the limit of measurement in my contraption. You have to move the centre sideways, worry about the jumping no's on the scales and so on. The conclusion: specific gravity of this fake silver cup was 6.7 to 6.9, the pure silver being 10.49 or so. Kindly observe the Maltese Cross on my HM: octagonal shield it is within is not equi-sided and the tip of each arm of the Cross has a dimple outwards instead of a cut back.
Conclusion: I thought I bought myself a bargain. Now I know better.
Who shall I present it now to, will my mother in law save me as usual from blushes and accept this thing as a gift graciously enough?
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[salmoned]

I believe I would call your loving cup a sugar bowl. Did you also test a known silver object? Doing a single measurement on an apparatus is no way to conduct a test. ;)
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[salmoned]

One final observation, I suspect the handles are hollow and therefore your specific gravity test is useless in this case. I make this suggestion based on the low density you recorded. Usually nonferrous silver-plated objects have a density near 9 g/cc.
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[fatso]

salmoned>>> this friendly banter is turning into useful exercise in how to avoid falling into the trap in this mugs game. I could have, of course, drilled holes in the handles to allow the insides to fill with water but I thought that to test to destruction would be much too much of a childish curiosity of mine to satisfy.
However I do recall this scene in the Polanski's movie named The Pianist. The Jewish inmates of the Warsaw Ghetto ask the musician to stop playing and test 20 dollar gold coins against the marble table surface. The one which resonates with a dull answer gets rejected. Probably lead inside(spec.Gravity 19 or about, high)

You will be glad to know that my lovers cup/sugar bowl/whatever did resonate nicely. The handles did give off a good metallic sound also, albeit at different pitch.
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[pbaird]

What makes you think that it might be silverplate? I'm definitely a novice. This is the only piece of old silver that I own. Also, what lead you to believe that it might be British?

Have you seen these marks elsewhere? How can I get more information about these marks? I've spent hours searching the forums. I've found three or four other crosses like mine on other pieces in the forums but none with the T&S with the cross.

I spent about 2 hours polishing the piece tonight and it's breathtakingly beautiful. I might invest in the materials to perform an acid test to determine if it's sterling or plate. Is that the best way?



Thanks, pbaird
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[fatso]

Well, you did certainly put proverbial cat between the pidgeons.
As you may see from the above, I cannot be sure of my own little beauty also. One thing I find interesting here: hallmarks are very crisp in my case and individually struck. Unlike the mass produced silverplate they look very genuine to me.
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[salmoned]

pbaird - your bowl doesn't likely have any hidden hollows and a specific gravity test would be conclusive.
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[pbaird]

I'm not the guy that's doing the specific gravity test on his piece. That seems like a lot of trouble. I will do an acid test in an inconspicuos place to find out if it's sterling or not. I cleaned it last night and it's beautiful regardless. My wife and I are thrilled. It would just be cool if it were Sterling. I'm still trying to find out about the mark.
T & S and then a cross (resembles a German Flying Cross)

Please see my preious post for the link to the picture of the piece and the marks on the piece.

I guess there are some marks that just can't be identified. I still think there's somebody out there that knows.........I'm not giving up yet!
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[admin]

Hi,
I've not come across this maker before, judging from the two pieces and the marks illustrated, both are most likely British and would date to the last quarter of the 19th century.

Regards, Tom
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[pbaird]

I mistakenly said that my mark was T & S when it is definitely T & J with a cross that looks like a German Flying Cross.

http://s302.photobucket.com/albums/nn101/plbaird/

http://s302.photobucket.com/albums/nn10 ... rlingbowl/

When the picture comes up click on it to enlarge it.

Fatso,
Your items mark looks so much like mine except for the points on the cross. A beautiful piece! Sheffield 1818-19 by T & J Creswick marked items T & J but the marks are not similar at all. Still searching.....(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

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[fatso]

pbaird>>> do not mention anything commercial here or you will be banned, they have strict rules in this Temple of Wisdom.
Anyway, my previous test was rubbished above, and justly so as the object quite beautiful. My wife who is a scientist in Poland and pays me much too infrequent visits here in London, holds this thing in her hands just now.
She has offered to take it back to warsaw and have it professionally assessed. As I intend to display my not inconsiderable collection of english modern and victorian silver over there, in a warsaw castle, I might take her up on her offer.
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[fatso]

Have repeated this genial hydrostatic test, this time accepting error in my method(use of 2 precisions scales, have just added the simulatenous reading on both. Any mathematician worth his salt will tell you that it is not that simple, especially as the silver weight was suspended off the centre between two sets of scales. You would have to do your head in by using sin and cosin functions to obtain reliable result).
This time I have used the contraption with one larger set of scale, precision down to 1 Gm only. Spec. gravity obtained: 8.17. Take correction for air contained in the handles, say 3 ccm and you still beat it up to no more then 8.9 So, alpacca it is, I am afraid.
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[CatherineOz]

Have you thought of returning to your garage sale premise and asking the vendors if they knew anything about the history/provinence of the article?

And another thought - I don't think you are looking at a German Flying Cross - I think the gentleman who suggested it is a Maltese Cross, is correct. It is similar to a cross on a piece I am about to research which I am pretty sure is of Australian origin.

ATVB

Catherine
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