What silversmith is it?

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
Okapi
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What silversmith is it?

Postby Okapi » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:17 am

As far as my search goes, I found Sven Arnd for this system brooch, what is your opinion?

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silvercollector99
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Re: What silversmith is it?

Postby silvercollector99 » Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:57 pm

I cannot attest to authenticity, but I can add information about the hallmarks.
The SA hallmark appears to be Samual Arnd who owned a shop in St. Petersburg. Hallmark is listed in Postnikova #1843.
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A rough translation:
Samual Arnd, (born 1812, died 1890). In 1845 master goldsmith and jeweler. In 1849 master enamel craftsman with enamel apprentice.

The other hallmark appears to be St. Petersburg City Arms. I added a mark used in the time period. It is listed as #1143 in Postnikova.

The Arnd makers marks is oval and has a dot between S and A. I do not see a dot in your photo. Perhaps it has worn off. I hope this helps.

Okapi
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Re: What silversmith is it?

Postby Okapi » Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:16 am

Thanks for those complementary informations, it's difficult to say if it is a dot, the hallmark is very tiny and not totally engraved.
As I've found no other SA in St-Petersburg, and Arnd is given to have maid insects or animals, it's certainly from his workshop in my opinion.

Qrt.S
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Re: What silversmith is it?

Postby Qrt.S » Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:22 am

The "SA" mark (if it is SA?) is very badly struck. In addition, is there an assayer's mark? If yes, could you show it please? If it is missing, there might a bigger problem...

Okapi
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Re: What silversmith is it?

Postby Okapi » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:28 pm

Why a bigger problem Qrt.S, for more precise silversmith identification or precisely dating, the 84 used is for me before 1885 when comes the hallmark with the town and Zolotniki in a cartouche ?
On brooches, and I've more than 50 in hands in 30 years collecting, if it was one or two with the controller, I can't sadly remind it, on small pieces you found generally only the silver grade and the maker, in my pictures library, they are always stamped as here on the fixation of the pin and on the pin itself(picture under), with the hallmark for 1885-1896(Postnikova 1152-1153) for example, it's only on pieces sized approximately as a cigarette case where the date and the controller is added.
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Zolotnik
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Re: What silversmith is it?

Postby Zolotnik » Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:39 pm

Hi Okapi -

Samuel Arnd, goldsmith and jeweller, master 1845-90, one of 27 St. Petersburg´s top jewellers! Known for his autstanding quality, concurrent of Fabergé!

I enclose some photos of his work - please compare with the quality of your work of an untalented locksmith! Grotesque fake.....

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Regards
Zolotnik

Okapi
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Re: What silversmith is it?

Postby Okapi » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:00 pm

Hi Zolotnik, I know you like the word fake, but with a little more fairplay, you can suggest another silversmith in place of an ayatollah of knowledge reaction?
You really think somebody takes time to make a small brooch for counterfeighting somebody well known?
What I don't like sometimes is people which said totally unreasonable judgment, if you can give me some details of your elephant head it can be interessant to see how is a real AS work too?
I'm not coming on this forum to heard somebody saying it's a fake without more explanation, I like to learn, not to be disappointed by the use of "Grotesque fake"!

Zolotnik
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Re: What silversmith is it?

Postby Zolotnik » Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:01 pm

Hi Okapi -

you go to a forum for Russian objects and ask for opinions.

Several members here are experts, not self-styled but through dekades of collecting experience or studying tons of files - members who communicate with other collectors, monitor the market (also the newest trends in faking), travelled through the country, know the language more or less and learning every day. But most of all they know how certain famous smiths, firms, jewellers or workshops in terms of quality worked! They have their knowledge not only out of books, museums or others collections - they had seen most of the objects face to face, could feel and touch them, observed every detail and discovered what this object distinguishes significant from the product of other firms.
Have you ever seen objects of Arnd in books, museums or real? Do you know how he used to mark his objects? So sloppy like your beetle? Do you think an artist like Arnd would rivet the wings of the beetle visible, unobligingly and crudly sanded? Etc., etc. Do you see no difference between your photos and my photos? Same quality and fineness?

I am accustomed getting rude words after giving my opinion - that is the style of disappointed people.I can live with that - but can you live lasting with a fake in your collection?

Regards
Zolotnik

Qrt.S
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Re: What silversmith is it?

Postby Qrt.S » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:58 am

You asked me a question Okapi; "Why a bigger problem?" I have been away therefore this a bit late answer. Zolotnik has already partly given you the answer but here are some more points of view:

Sometimes I don't understand how people collects silver objects for even decades but do not know the basic rules about country specific silver marking regulations. As I have mentioned many times earlier, the imperial Russia's marking system was very strict as from the years 1700 to 1917 (before that a mess). Peter the Great established the first silver edict on February 13th 1700. Generally said; a silver object should carry the following information, the maker, the town, the year, the assayer and the purity. Through the years it varied how this information was provided in form of marks but it was. To write it down here is impossible and as well unnecessary. Please read it from books. Anyway, if the mentioned information cannot be found on an object, you have a problem, bigger or smaller.

Now back to your object. Do you find all mentioned information on it? What I see is a bunch of rather lousy struck marks. The SA mark does not look like his mark showed by silvercollector 99. Just look at the cartouche etc. etc.. I duly hope I don't have to explain more.

I'm happy to discuss here with anybody but if one is lack of basic facts, the discussion is rather difficult.

Okapi
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Re: What silversmith is it?

Postby Okapi » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:20 pm

I don't contest the fact than you'rte a specialist zolotnik, but…

Nobody gives the answer to my question, "What silversmith is it", why just answer "I don't know who, but surely not Arnd", ok, you say that you learn a lot from decades, then in place of an abrupt answer, just say it's not from Arnd and you don't know who make it, or surely a silversmith you don't know and the quality of the work proves the fact.

It's not a good thing when somebody can't make an expertise only based on the fact he is the specialist of the thing, they are a lot of things nobody knows, and it's not a dishonour in that fact to say it?

To close the discussion about this unknown silversmith, just some words for the anecdote:
In my mercury gilding activity, they are sometimes customers, from Israel for example, who comes with russian works of art(always big value items, no small things as my brooch), I suppose they know the fact than if the piece seems to be modern, no possibility by me, but they are other people who surely don't take those precaution, as we can control our work with AFM(atomic force microscope), we know that it's impossible to see if it is modern or not when made with ancient gold and good craftsmanship, experts from english auction houses or museum people had been tested before I write that.

Then are you sure that in your collection they are no fakes which comes to the surface when a better specialist found it with a more performant technology?Image

Zolotnik
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Re: What silversmith is it?

Postby Zolotnik » Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:07 pm

Hi Okapi -

The reason why you get no answer to your question "What silversmith is it" is very simple: It is no silversmith - because your marks are both wrong in the sense of legality and in the sense of authenticity. What you have are pseudo - or phantasy marks - better faux marks - to deceive the buyer with a cetain similarity to a well known mark. Maybe you have already noticed that the fakers use only the most famous names. By the way - if it would be another silversmith - the rules and laws are the same. There are nearly no unknown marks - only the names of silversmiths were lost - than the answer would be: known mark, unrecorded silversmith - but this would prerequesite that the object is authentic!
Just to repeat what you will not accept: your object is a total. contemporary fake with wrong, faked marks. And I am sure that the silver content is not 875/1000.

Note: Fakes are always significant cheaper made than an original! Fakers are merchants! If I would make a real copy it would cost me much more than what I can get when I sell it - provided I have all the necessary top workmasters at hand.

Regards
Zolotnik

Stantheman
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Re: What silversmith is it?

Postby Stantheman » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:37 pm

Hi,
I just came across this topic when I was searching some more inormation about a silver tray in my collection. The piece comes from Petersburg 1850., (date not clearly visible 1851 o 1854). The assayer is A. Mitin.
It's signed with silversmith mark AS (in oval) with a dot in between letters in the middle of their height. Maybe it's another variation of the Arnd Samuel mark? The oval shape of the mark and the dot in between letters is very similar. Just the order of letters is reversed from SA to AS. Maybe it's possible that at some point Arnd Samuel changed his mark? What do you think? Do you know this mark?

There is also a chance I consider that maker AS is not Arnd Samuel but maybe he is a relative to other silversmiths of around this period (who used latin S in their last name). I know just to such makers: Mathias Skytt (Skyytinen), 1850-1866 and Carl Magnus Stahle (CMS), active 1830-1849. Do you have any information about their biograms and family members?
I don't have printed literature about russian silver.

Thank you in advance for any advice!
Stanislaw

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AG2012
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Re: What silversmith is it?

Postby AG2012 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:18 pm

Hi,
It`s A dot S.
I opt for Adolf Sper, who died in 1857.
Cannot be Samuel Arnd, whose initials are SA. In Western family names system (except in Hungarian names) christian , given name always comes first, family name second.
Regards

Stantheman
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Re: What silversmith is it?

Postby Stantheman » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:33 pm

Thank you so much, AG2012 !
You helped me a lot. After your message I found that mark struck on a coffe pot dated 1849 in archive of Bukowskis market. So I guess you are right.
Thank you! All the best,
Stanislaw


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