Niello box

[Hose_dk]

Diameter 5cm - its 1cm thick.
It has no hallmarks. But some caligraphy.
First of all - whats the purpose and secondly whats the sultans name and thereby age.
Can anyone read the text? And what is the moteve.
x
x

[oel]

Hi Hose,

Could it be some kind of a Vesta case, to hold short matches and keep them dry. Your last image; lid missing, the little hole, to shake out one match, the ribbed surface is used for lighting the matches.

Oel.

[WarrenKundis]

Good morning Hose,

This particular coat of arms is the official arms of the Ottoman Empire. The turgha does not appear to match any particular sultan. The one on this box is even more stylized. The three characters on the other side may be something our friend Damon can read for you.

The view may, may, be the side of the citadel close to the Golden Horne where the Byzantiums had strung a huge chain across in order to stop Ottoman ships from passing during the siege. 70 Ottoman vessels were dragged overland on greased planks. It was not long after that the city fell to Memed II's troops.

Warren

[Hose_dk]

Thanks for the reply.

I have seen similar motive on cigaret cases. I hoped for a known tungra for dating. Assuming its a box for matches where the missing part is.
But what would the use be for the rest?
I soppose its should have a match in a box for cigarets.
The 2 decorations - I often see the ottoman coat of arms on decoration in Turkey.
The explanation regading the city motive sounds logical. I have also seen that before on cigaretcases on (an international auktions site - that we all know :-)

xx

Its irritating that it has no hallmarks. Any idea of age?
Any idea of purpose of the large room?

[oel]

Hi Hose,

The surface near missing lid, is it ribbed to be a striker, or is it striped niello decoration? If indeed a striker perhaps the small compartment to hold a few little matches, and the biggest compartment to hold a little tobacco. I assume, looking at your images, there is no communication between both compartments.
Oel.

[Hose_dk]

Yes thats correct. Its ribbons to create a rough surface. Ant there is no correspondance between the two rooms.
I also assume that we are ind the Tobacco corner. The entire box har a weight of 68 gram and its sides are very heavy.
Sorry that the piece is missing.
x
The "big" room is so very small - almost room for nothing inside. And I would say that its to small. But Again the Price of Tobacco.
x
As seen 2 modern matches. The room is so small - they cannot get longer into.
x
So you see very Little room.

[davidross]

I'm sure all of you have already seen this very informative post by Zolotnik:

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=36973&p=98938&hilit=tinder#p98938

Just wondering if this Ottoman piece isn't also a tinder cord cigarette case. Judging from the size of some early matchbox covers and vestas, I think that so-called safety matches were much shorter than their modern counterparts.

There was also a vogue in Britain for "novelty" figural pocket-watch vestas around the end of the 19th century and into the first decade of the 20th. This Ottoman example is missing the bale, which is a simple replacement from a watchmaker. It must have been quite convenient for a gentleman to have kept such an item (and its treasured contents) tucked into a vest pocket, secured to his person by a chain. I think these vestas were also used as fobs for pocket watches, though not exclusively so.

I leave it to the OP to make any final determination.

Regards
DR

[Hose_dk]

I did not have that in mind. But could very well be the use. Its open inside - but how to use ?????
The others are open in both ends. mine have a small hole - and how that should Work??

but lets google

[amena]

I do not know if this photo could be of some help.
x
The coat of arms is almost the same, and there are these two marks.
Regards
Amena

[davidross]

That is quite helpful, Amena.

It looks to me like the impressed upper mark (in Arabic) on your niello box matches the script in niello on the lid of Hose's item. Furthermore, the same script appears on the bottom of the teacup discussed at length in this post:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=37437

I do not read Arabic, but hopefully Damon or someone else who does will confirm that in all three cases, the script says Van, the city in eastern Turkey. If this is indeed the case, it would be quite logical that the scene on the front of Hose's item represents the town and Citadel (or Castle Rock) of Van as seen from the water.

Regards
David R

[Hose_dk]

Well that could make sence.
x

That would explain the minarets that proberly would not be in Byzans before the ottoman conquerst.
I had not seen that cup before.
If its Van - I have to visit it - as I have the souvenier :-)

[WarrenKundis]

Hmmm, just looking at some lovely images of Van. There is a large lake there but the citadel walls are not along the edge of the water as you see here. There are four minarets on the box and only one attached to what is referred to as the Pasha's palace seen in the last image. May, may, be made in Van as a tourist item but not of Van.

W

[WarrenKundis]

Nothing like contradicting what I just posted. There is ine minaret on the with a flag, although have not as yet found an image viewing it all from the lake.

[Hose_dk]

in case its Van - its turned, Left side should correspond to right in first Picture,

[davidross]

To Warren,

This is a part of the world I admit to having no firsthand knowledge of, not for a lack of interest or desire but rather the limitations of time and energy. So I will leave it up to others to make some final determination.

And to Hose,

If you do indeed make it to Van, by all means ask the locals for a demonstration on how to use this thing, and please post it here!

Cheers

David R

[Hose_dk]

Yes I shall. I had planes in 1999 but didnt make it.
In may 2014 I was half the way. Got to Kappadokien - the land with the buatiful horses.
So I still miss that part of Turkey.
Lack of - most of all Money, buy also time to explore. My job and wifes job alwayes take so much of our time :-)

[N.A.]

hi
replay is littel late

Intniales are Armenian,
(J,P) niello from Western Armenian city Van, could be Hovsep Or (Jovsep in Western armenian dialect)
Hovsep Pochovian was one of armenian silversiths in Van, there were more than 100..
Հովսեփ Պոչովյան he left Van to Rostov after genocide and later to Tavris Iran, he change his name to Avetian.
his son who died recently Lemvel or Manvel Avetian was very famous with his jewellery "Tala" suppling royalties

see more about

admin edit - see:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=37437&p=142839&hilit=Armenian#p142839

[Hose_dk]

thanks, every bit of information help me understand this wonderful country. Visited first time many years ago, but I still haven't been at location.
Now I know more, so thanks for the information.

Found another box viewtopic.php?f=12&t=46951