Persian cup

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JanGroen
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Persian cup

Postby JanGroen » Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:10 am

Good afternoon
I have this plated copper/brass cup with Arabic writing on it. The inside is plated with some white metal.
Are there any way to figure out where it is from and what age it is. Can someone possibly give me a forum where one can find information about these type of Islamic copper objects?
Groete
Jannie
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AG2012
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Re: Persian cup

Postby AG2012 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:02 pm

Hi,
I have very similar cup with solid provenance; from a public fountain in a town in Greek Macedonia.
Arab and Farsi speakers recognized the letters but could not translate the meaning.
Having in mind the provenance, I thought it was from Ottoman empire. But, modern Turks were unable to read Arabic letters.
Finally, there was an Orientalist at the university who told me it was Turkish, written in Arabic and meant a quote from Quran :give water to the thirsty.
As for the dating, I think mine is 19th century.
Try with an Arab speaker or take pictures from every side of the cup.
Of course, I cannot be sure if yours is Ottoman, too.
Regards

JanGroen
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Re: Persian cup

Postby JanGroen » Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:04 pm

AG2012 wrote:Hi,
I have very similar cup with solid provenance; from a public fountain in a town in Greek Macedonia.
Arab and Farsi speakers recognized the letters but could not translate the meaning.
Having in mind the provenance, I thought it was from Ottoman empire. But, modern Turks were unable to read Arabic letters.
Finally, there was an Orientalist at the university who told me it was Turkish, written in Arabic and meant a quote from Quran :give water to the thirsty.
As for the dating, I think mine is 19th century.
Try with an Arab speaker or take pictures from every side of the cup.
Of course, I cannot be sure if yours is Ottoman, too.
Regards


Thanks, I have did some research. The one side contains something called a Tughra, it is like a signature used by Ottoman Sultans. It can be found on a lot of Ottoman coins. So if one can figure out which one it is, the date and origin can be figured out.

Jannie

dragonflywink
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Re: Persian cup

Postby dragonflywink » Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:36 pm

Mine, posted below, is an Indian brass drinking cup/glass, was told it likely dates from the early to mid 20th century, they're typically used for the yoghurt-based 'lassi', as well as water (makes a good pen cup since it's so sturdy). Similar pieces are fairly common...

~Cheryl



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AG2012
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Re: Persian cup

Postby AG2012 » Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:32 am

Hi,
Lassi cups are fairly common (Punjab), more often with floral décor (non Islamic), but also with Arabic inscriptions (Islamic region of Indian subcontinent before Pakistan independence and separation in 1947, so Indian historically).
Depicted here is my Ottoman cup, similar but not identical.
If one really wants positive identification, translation of Arabic lettering is needed (or at least the identification of the language).
Anyway, they are not a rarity, Ottoman better than Indian, unless really antique.
Tughra (if there is one) is definitely an indicator of Ottoman provenance.
Regards
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JanGroen
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Re: Persian cup

Postby JanGroen » Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:41 pm

dragonflywink wrote:Mine, posted below, is an Indian brass drinking cup/glass, was told it likely dates from the early to mid 20th century, they're typically used for the yoghurt-based 'lassi', as well as water (makes a good pen cup since it's so sturdy). Similar pieces are fairly common...

~Cheryl



Image



Thanks for posting yours. It is very similar to mine. Yours also have what is known as a Tughra on it. They are very distinctive. Wonder why they would end up on a Indian cup?

Jannie

JanGroen
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Posts: 251
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Re: Persian cup

Postby JanGroen » Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:51 pm

AG2012 wrote:Hi,
Lassi cups are fairly common (Punjab), more often with floral décor (non Islamic), but also with Arabic inscriptions (Islamic region of Indian subcontinent before Pakistan independence and separation in 1947, so Indian historically).
Depicted here is my Ottoman cup, similar but not identical.
If one really wants positive identification, translation of Arabic lettering is needed (or at least the identification of the language).
Anyway, they are not a rarity, Ottoman better than Indian, unless really antique.
Tughra (if there is one) is definitely an indicator of Ottoman provenance.
Regards
Image


Thanks for the help. I wondered what they are used for. I checked Lassi cups and looks promising. dragonflywink and mine both have Tughra on them and I believe they are most likely from the same place. The Lassi cups on the net don't seem to have these.

Jannie

dragonflywink
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Re: Persian cup

Postby dragonflywink » Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:47 pm

Personally, seeing some sort of calligraphy, but not a tughra. Mine was purchased from a dealer who brought back dozens of them from a buying trip to India, and having seen many with extremely similar design also identified as Indian, sometimes from India-based sellers, unless provided with reliable evidence of Ottoman or Persian origin, will continue to call mine 'Indian'...

~Cheryl

JanGroen
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Re: Persian cup

Postby JanGroen » Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:03 am

dragonflywink wrote:Personally, seeing some sort of calligraphy, but not a tughra. Mine was purchased from a dealer who brought back dozens of them from a buying trip to India, and having seen many with extremely similar design also identified as Indian, sometimes from India-based sellers, unless provided with reliable evidence of Ottoman or Persian origin, will continue to call mine 'Indian'...

~Cheryl


I clearly see one of these on our cups.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tughra# ... mposed.png

It has all the parts. I ask a friend and he did not recognize it as a calligraphy style used in modern text.

Jannie

Damon
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Re: Persian cup

Postby Damon » Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:02 pm

Hello Jannie

There is an almost identical cup for sale on a well known site

If you search for "Old INDIA lassi cup, beaker, engraved metal, Islamic calligraphy" I expect you will find it. The cup is described as Indian, 50-60 years old.

I think that Cheryl and AG2012 are correct. This is almost certainly from Punjab in Pakistan/northern India.

Is the calligraphy a tugra?

Unlikely. These cups while collectible now were everyday objects in their day. They were produced in huge numbers, roughly decorated and perhaps traded widely. Such a daily item was unlikely to be inscribed with an imperial mark and it is hard to imagine that an imperial signature would be so roughly executed.

Could it have been inspired by a tugra?

Quite possibly. Although what was then colonized India was never part of the Ottoman empire the Ottoman Sultan had an important symbolic role for many Muslims. Google Khilafat Movement for information about this in post WWI India. It is quite possible that the worker who did the calligraphy was working from a template based on or inspired by a tugra.

I would be pleased to hear from other members especially if anyone knows of relevant articles by scholars of material culture. I couldn't find anything other than vendor websites.

Hope this helps

Damon


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