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Hi all -
early markings with the "old" city portal

Michelsen, Leopold Eduard 1847-1888, Reval





Schmidt,Johann Jacob 1809-1849, Riga


Source: A. Leisticiw, Coll. Goldstein

Goldstein

The first sugar tong (Schepelev input 21.20./2:14PM ) is assayed by K3 who is Kliment Zagayewsky in Riga 1899-1916.

The production year for the kokoshnik with small 84 figures on the second tong is the latter part of 1898. We know this because the law/ukaz was stipulated in 1896 but the first kokshnik, this with small figures, was introduced as mentioned not earlier than in July 1898. It was used only for half a year because its outlook did not fulfill the requirements of the law. It had to be changed quickly and that happened as from 1.1.1899. Aleksandr Romanov assayed in Riga 1895-99, a perfect match. In other words the tong is made between July and December 1898.

Qrt.S wrote:The first sugar tong (Schepelev input 21.20./2:14PM ) is assayed by K3 who is Kliment Zagayewsky in Riga 1899-1916.

The production year for the kokoshnik with small 84 figures on the second tong is the latter part of 1898. We know this because the law/ukaz was stipulated in 1896 but the first kokshnik, this with small figures, was introduced as mentioned not earlier than in July 1898. It was used only for half a year because its outlook did not fulfill the requirements of the law. It had to be changed quickly and that happened as from 1.1.1899. Aleksandr Romanov assayed in Riga 1895-99, a perfect match. In other words the tong is made between July and December 1898.

Dear Ort.
In new (1899-1908) punches of Riga's Assay Office there are not Alexander Romanov's initials. Only Kliment Zagayevsky. On the second sugar tongs of Goldstein we see KZ initials too. Attentively look.

You are right it's early kind of a punch of 1899.

Goldstein wrote:Hi Dad -
now I am confused:
Assayer: Iwan Spiridonow 1873-1890 (A. Leistikow)
Schmidt, Georg Heinrich 1849 - 1893
Goldstein

Dear Goldstein.

We already discussed Spiridonov in Riga. http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... nov#p74673
I wrote that no Spiridonov at Assay Office of Riga existed. Only Ilya Georgiyevich Sorokin.

Leistikow and Reinans had no access to the main documents. They worked only with documents of Guild of Riga. Therefore about masters they know much, but about assayers - not.

Very good collection of sugar tongs!

Dad wrote: Dear Ort.

My apologies: "Dear Qrt.S"

Hi Goldstein!
Ilya Sorokin was the chief of Riga assay office in 1888-1891, Alexander Romanov - in 1895-1898, Kliment Zagaevskiy - in 1899-1916.
There are many interesting books besides Postnikova-Loseva and Leistikow :-). I hope you can read in Russian.
Alex.

Hi Dad -
what ever you see - actual it is AP - a little crippelt. But not K3!
At a meeting of collectors of Baltic silver in the "House of the Balts" in Detmold I received the following additions to A. Leistikow's book "Baltic Silver". This information is missing in her book p. 307 (namely unidentified assay masters from Riga). If there is an updated second edition I do not know.
ДЛ - Daniil Daniilowitsch Lesenko 1884, 1885, 1886, 1887 Chief of the Mintoffice Riga
AK - Aleksandr Nikolajewitsch Krollau 1897- 1898
K3 - Kliment Zagajewskij 1899 - 1908
AM - Sergej Aleksandrowitsch Murawjew 1901
AP - Aleksander Wasiliewitsch Romanow 1895 - 1899
УШ - Ulrich Friedrich Strauss 1857 - 1862

In my opinion much is unknown or misleadingly. There is very much silver still privately owned by the former Baltic German families - but they very seldom sell it but keep it in the family. Without real existing pieces many conjectures can not be confirmed.

Goldstein

Hi Alex -
many thanks for your book suggestions. In Germany not easy to get - but will try my Russian friends.

Goldstein

@Dad,

Latvijas Sudrabkali )V.Vilite claims on page 12 that Ivan Spiridonov assayed in Riga 1873-1890. Is that incorrect or not or should Spiridonov be superseded with Sorokin 1888-1891. The thread you are mentioning left it a bit unclear. To my understanding Ivan Spiridonov assayed in Kaunas 1862-1873 (also???).

...What a mess !!!!

But yes, Sorokin in Riga (my fault, I looked at an outdated list, sorry). I only mentioned that Romanov assayed in Riga but the initials on the tong with large 84 are K3 (Kliment Zagayevsky) and on the tong with small 84 are AP (Aleksandr Romanov)

Goldstein wrote:Hi Dad -
what ever you see - actual it is AP - a little crippelt. But not K3!

Goldstein

You are mistaken. Look attentively. For convenience I allocated red letters КЗ. And I added the like punch for an example.

Hi Dad -
Thanks for the correction! It is a blessing that the forum has a knowing member in Russia!

Goldstein

So it is, thanks Dad.

Qrt.S wrote:@Dad,

Latvijas Sudrabkali )V.Vilite claims on page 12 that Ivan Spiridonov assayed in Riga 1873-1890.

It's BIG MISTAKE.

Qrt.S wrote: To my understanding Ivan Spiridonov assayed in Kaunas 1862-1873 (also???).

It's mistake too. Since 1862 in Kovno assay office Konstantin Kolpakov (KK)

Qrt.S wrote: I only mentioned that Romanov assayed in Riga but the initials on the tong with large 84 are K3 (Kliment Zagayevsky) and on the tong with small 84 are AP (Aleksandr Romanov)

Mistake too.

New punches (kokoshnik left) large 84 or small 84 in 1899 :

Riga - Kliment Zagayevsky (КЗ)

Warszawa - Aleksandr Romanov (АР)

St.-Peterburg - Yakov Lyapunov (ЯЛ)

OK, but I'll correct but who is this Ivan Spiridonov, does he exist at all and if so where did he assay?

More to add to list of small 84 users...

Moscow, Anatoly Artsybashev

There is no small 84 punch anymore in 1899. It was only used 1.7.1898-31.12.1898.

[quote="Qrt.S"]OK, but I'll correct but who is this Ivan Spiridonov, does he exist at all and if so where did he assay?

More to add to list of small 84 users...

Moscow, Anatoly Artsybashev



Evening of mistakes ))

Wilno :

Well, well, almost unbeliavable. Nonetheless, it is Artsibashev anyway, because he assayed in Vilna 1898-1914. I got the mark by mail and was told that it was Artsibashev in Moscow 1898. My list looks like this:

Vilna 1884-1888
Moskow 1888-1898 Artsibashev could have moved from Moskov to Vilna sometimes in 1898.
Vilna 1898-1914
Kiev 1915-1916
St Petersburg 1916

Is it correct, or?

However, you didn't answer the question of who is Ivan Spiridonov and where and when did he assay or does he exist at all?

Qrt.S wrote:
However, you didn't answer the question of who is Ivan Spiridonov and where and when did he assay or does he exist at all?

Ivan Spiridonov is mistake, phantom, myth ....

There was in Kovno 1854-1862 probirer Spiridonov Fedor. In 1862 he corrected the surname on Ivanov (Fedor Ivanov). I think from here the series of delusions went.

Thanks Dad, I appreciate every grain of information.