More Russian Silver Judaica - Fake or Genuine?

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
mikkitobi
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:43 pm

More Russian Silver Judaica - Fake or Genuine?

Postby mikkitobi » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:56 am

Hi there.

Item 2

I stumbled upon this site a few days ago and thought it was an ideal time to ask those more knowledgable than me about the authenticity or otherwise of 2 pieces of Russian Silver I purchased about 10 years ago on a visit to Warsaw....

The second item is a silver 'buckle' that would have originally held some kind of cloth belt to wrap around a torah scroll to hold it tight.

Here are some photos:

http://bizdirs.from-mt.com/glasgow/dsc00882.jpg
http://bizdirs.from-mt.com/glasgow/dsc00883.jpg
http://bizdirs.from-mt.com/glasgow/dsc00884.jpg
http://bizdirs.from-mt.com/glasgow/dsc00887.jpg
http://bizdirs.from-mt.com/glasgow/dsc00888.jpg
http://bizdirs.from-mt.com/glasgow/dsc00890.jpg

The maker appears to be P Shejnker and it is dated 1880 but I cannot decipher the other markings.

Thanks

M

Zolotnik
Posts: 1025
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:35 am
Location: Germany

Re: More Russian Silver Judaica - Fake or Genuine?

Postby Zolotnik » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:11 am

Hi -

this is a fake!
Townmark on your piece is Simbirsk - Schejnker worked in Vilnius! Assaymaster on your piece is Kolpakov Konstatin, but he assayed in Vinius. Total nonsens marks and homemade phantasy product1

Regards
Zolotnik

Qrt.S
contributor
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Location: Helsinki Finland

Re: More Russian Silver Judaica - Fake or Genuine?

Postby Qrt.S » Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:28 am

Mikkitobi, kindly take a look on what I wrote about the marks on the tora pointer.

In addition, there are undoubtedly some similarities with Simbirsk town crest. However, Simbirsk is rather far from Lithuania much closer to the Ural mountains. But Kaunas/Kovno is in the neighborhood. Its mark looks a bit like this one. Moreover, Konstantin Kolpakov seems to have assayed in Kaunas too 1865-1896. This is a problem because Kolpakov is mentioned to have assayed in Vilnius 1882-1894 or 1882-1884. He cannot have assayed in two places at the same time. Something is wrong. Where did Schejnkner work and where and when did Kolpakov assay?

Nonetheless, I think I share Zolotnik's opinion, the marks are more than dubious.

Dad
contributor
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Location: St. Petersburg

Re: More Russian Silver Judaica - Fake or Genuine?

Postby Dad » Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:35 pm

Hi, All.

Yes it is false marks, unfortunately.
I can add, besides, that have told the Zolotnik and Qrt.S. This kind of the cartouche of 84 has appeared only after 1882.

Best Reg..

asti
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Location: Romania

Re: More Russian Silver Judaica - Fake or Genuine?

Postby asti » Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:30 pm

Hi all,

To complete the picture, engraving on this object is done with machinery. For the future that everyone should caste your eyes to how the work is done, because lately I noticed many fakes with perfectly valid markings. The explanation is that: with the new era of scrapping silver they cut out the hallmarks and sold them to be lately integrated into new fakes.

Regards,
Asti

blakstone
contributor
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Re: More Russian Silver Judaica - Fake or Genuine?

Postby blakstone » Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:15 am

Konstantin Maximovich Kolpakov, son of Vilnius assayer Maxim Grigorievich Kolpakov, was born in 1842 and graduated from the St. Petersburg Assayer’s School in 1860, upon which he was appointed an assistant assayer in St. Petersburg. His first appointment as a full assayer was to Kiev on 21 Jun 1862. However, within months, on 10 Sep 1862, he was transferred to Kaunas/Kovno, replacing disgraced assayer Feyodor Ivanov, who was found to have been smuggling gold articles which he then illegally marked. Kolpakov remained at Kaunas/Kovno without interruption until the 1896 re-organization of assay office personnel.

Leizer Pinchusovich Scheinker was born in 1850 and recognized as a master in the Vilnius Jewish Goldsmith’s Guild on 9 Jun 1874. He was registered at the Vilnius Assay Office from 1877 to 1900 and is recorded as having four apprentices 1883-1889.

This seems to be definitive: Kolpakov was assayer at Kaunas/Kovno 1862-1896, while Scheinker was registered at Vilnius 1877-1900. But I concur with what everyone else has said: the dodgy look of the marks and questionable workmanship are evidence enough that the buckle is not authentic.


Ref: Edmundas Laucevicius, Lietuvos auksakalyste : XV-XIX amzius [Lithuanian Goldsmiths, 15th-19th Centuries], (Vilnius: Baltos Lankos, 2001), pp. 382-383, maker #II.952; p. 408-409, assayer #13.

Qrt.S
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Location: Helsinki Finland

Re: More Russian Silver Judaica - Fake or Genuine?

Postby Qrt.S » Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:37 am

Thank you Blakstone, this is valuable information. I must update my files immediately.

mikkitobi
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:43 pm

Re: More Russian Silver Judaica - Fake or Genuine?

Postby mikkitobi » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:05 pm

Thanks guys - very helpful.

I didnt pay a lot of money for these items as i suspected they were fakes.

What prompted me after 10 years to ask advice was that an antique dealer looked at them at the weekend and although not an expert in Russian Silver he thought they WERE silver...

I assume these fakes are NOT usually made of silver?

M

asti
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Location: Romania

Re: More Russian Silver Judaica - Fake or Genuine?

Postby asti » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:59 am

mikkitobi wrote:I assume these fakes are NOT usually made of silver?


Hi mikkitobi,
They usualy are made from silver... It's easyer to work with silver then alpacca or other materials.

Asti

Dad
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Location: St. Petersburg

Re: More Russian Silver Judaica - Fake or Genuine?

Postby Dad » Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:23 am

blakstone wrote:Konstantin Maximovich Kolpakov, son of Vilnius assayer Maxim Grigorievich Kolpakov, was born in 1842 and graduated from the St. Petersburg Assayer’s School in 1860, upon which he was appointed an assistant assayer in St. Petersburg. His first appointment as a full assayer was to Kiev on 21 Jun 1862. However, within months, on 10 Sep 1862, he was transferred to Kaunas/Kovno, replacing disgraced assayer Feyodor Ivanov, who was found to have been smuggling gold articles which he then illegally marked. Kolpakov remained at Kaunas/Kovno without interruption until the 1896 re-organization of assay office personnel.

Leizer Pinchusovich Scheinker was born in 1850 and recognized as a master in the Vilnius Jewish Goldsmith’s Guild on 9 Jun 1874. He was registered at the Vilnius Assay Office from 1877 to 1900 and is recorded as having four apprentices 1883-1889.

This seems to be definitive: Kolpakov was assayer at Kaunas/Kovno 1862-1896, while Scheinker was registered at Vilnius 1877-1900. But I concur with what everyone else has said: the dodgy look of the marks and questionable workmanship are evidence enough that the buckle is not authentic.


Ref: Edmundas Laucevicius, Lietuvos auksakalyste : XV-XIX amzius [Lithuanian Goldsmiths, 15th-19th Centuries], (Vilnius: Baltos Lankos, 2001), pp. 382-383, maker #II.952; p. 408-409, assayer #13.


Hi, Blakstone.

Yes, Laucevicius correctly called a surname of master Ivanov, but he didn't tell that till 1862 its surname was Spiridonov. And only in 1862 its surname corrected on Ivanov. Before 1862 there was Feodor Spiridonov, but after 1862 - Feodor Ivanov. The mistake was in documents. The surname of the father of the master was mixed with his
middle name.

Best Regards.

WarrenM
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:43 am

Re: More Russian Silver Judaica - Fake or Genuine?

Postby WarrenM » Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:30 am

Qrt.S wrote:Mikkitobi, kindly take a look on what I wrote about the marks on the tora pointer.

In addition, there are undoubtedly some similarities with Simbirsk town crest. However, Simbirsk is rather far from Lithuania much closer to the Ural mountains. But Kaunas/Kovno is in the neighborhood. Its mark looks a bit like this one. Moreover, Konstantin Kolpakov seems to have assayed in Kaunas too 1865-1896. This is a problem because Kolpakov is mentioned to have assayed in Vilnius 1882-1894 or 1882-1884. He cannot have assayed in two places at the same time. Something is wrong. Where did Schejnkner work and where and when did Kolpakov assay?

Nonetheless, I think I share Zolotnik's opinion, the marks are more than dubious.


Shame I only saw this now after so many years. I have a pair of candlesticks made by Schenker, assayed by Kolpakov, with a severely rubbed city mark which could easily be Kovno. In fact, one of the clear examples on this site of the Kovno mark is a Schenker Kolpakov collaboration http://www.925-1000.com/Frussia_city_02.html, so I don't think the combination of marks is dubious at all. Kovno is just 100 miles from Vilna. Kolpakov was revered as a master of his craft and so was Schenker. Rabbis and traders often travelled between these cities so it seems perfectly reasonable to expect this type of silversmith collaboration every now and again as well.

The real question is whether the work is consistent with Schenker's style, and on this question I have no clue. My only examples of his work are typical Russian style candlesticks.


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