Glass holders (unusual marks)

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Madhatterrus
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Glass holders (unusual marks)

Postby Madhatterrus » Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:47 pm

Hello,
I recently came across two glass holders and was told they were Victorian English items. I'm quite familiar with English hallmarks and to my mind this is not English sterling silver. It might be silver plate which I have very limited knowledge of. Could anyone enlighten me on these marks please? The profile portraits look like duty marks but I thought there were no duty marks on silver plate and certainly not two portraits in a row. I was also told that the portraits are of Prince Albert and AK on a shield is a duty mark and I'm totally confused by this information.
Any input would be much appreciated.
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dognose
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Re: Glass holders (unusual marks)

Postby dognose » Sat Aug 07, 2010 3:23 am

Hi,

Welcome to the Forum.

That mark has cropped up a couple of time before, but still appears to be a mystery. It is very likely to be a European manufacturer and the quality noted is of a high standard.

See: viewtopic.php?f=36&t=19656 and viewtopic.php?t=16597

Trev.

dognose
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Re: Glass holders (unusual marks)

Postby dognose » Sat Aug 07, 2010 4:19 am

Member vvall has posted an answer; Alexander Kach, Moscow, Russia.

See: viewtopic.php?t=16597

Trev.

Madhatterrus
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Re: Glass holders (unusual marks)

Postby Madhatterrus » Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:16 am

dognose wrote:Member vvall has posted an answer; Alexander Kach, Moscow, Russia.

See: viewtopic.php?t=16597

Trev.

Hi Trev,

Many thanks for your reply! Still there are some questions as to the origin (European/Russian?) but it's good to know the direction of further search.

Kind regards,
LA

silverport
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Re: Glass holders (unusual marks)

Postby silverport » Sat Aug 07, 2010 11:02 pm

Alexander Katsch, Berlin and Moscow

Hello

As already today in the contribution of »vvall« is mentioned: viewtopic.php?t=16597 - the maker’s mark is the mark of »Alexander Katsch, Moscow«.

The German hollowware and flatware producer were export oriented to their surrounding nations. And behind the Eastern (Russian Empire) and the South-Eastern Border (Austrian-Hungary Empire) were living a population with slightly rising income and market relevance.

Already in 1843 Alfred Krupp had in Berndorf, Austria with his companion Alexander Schoeller founded the »Alexander Schoeller & Co.«, a cutlery factory for mainly plated cutlery, to supply the Austro-Hungary Empire.

As also in the following examples, reason there fore was the difference in import taxes for finished cutlery, in relation to that of not finished ones — so called »Façonware«, which underwent the plating processing inside the country of destination.

So became Vienna the function of to be a “hub” for the Austro-Hungary Empire — and towns like e.g. Warsaw or Moscow became »hub« for the Russian Empire.

After Alfred Krupp had successful launched his "invention" in Berndorf, he liked to become at least in Europe the leading general supplier for cutlery manufactory machines and know how.

As next he had start cooperation with a cutlery maker »Jaeger« in Elberfeld, Prussian province Rhineland; and first results presented on a trade exhibition in the province capital Düsseldorf.

But that was in contrary to his licence contract with Alexander Schoeller — he had to deliver exclusive the Berndorf factory, and A. Schoeller gave the money for production and sale activities.

So the Rhineland factory was stopped.

Alfred Krupp has needed more contracts, much more contracts — so he made many attempts there fore; and was often successfull. So he has sale also licences to Christofle; and the English Patent to Elkington, Mason & Co.

And a while later was the silverware factory of the Berlin silversmith Vollgold his contractor. But the Prussian Patent Office gave him not a Patent for hisinvention”.

It has about 10 year needed, until 1860, that a contract between a Russian Noble and Krupp was signed, for the cutlery factory »Techelstein« in St. Petersburg. »Alexander Katsch« was in Moscow founded as her dependency. And it seems, that »Alexander Katsch Berlin« then after was their founding, to win the German market too?

Baron Alexander L. von Stieglitz, and his Moscow bank invested in between mainly in Railway licences and textile factoriesthe freight rates lowered, railway transports became a never before believed speed and security.

Many Western German silverware and plated factory looked out for to become under these much better circumstances supplier for the Russian Empire.

Some liked to have before a hub in Berlin — »Koch & Bergfeld« has bought »Vollgold«.

In 1871 when »A. Ritter & Cie.«, a predecessor of the »WMF« has started his plated cutlery, their »Façonware« was delivered by »Berndorf« - that remained the same also any years by the »WMF«. But they looked out, to get an own production facility — from a Berlin buy they transported the cutlery production to their main factory in Geislingen.

1889 they’ve bought »Alexander Katsch, Berlin«. The plating processing remained, and became possibility for a quick sales wares deposit.

Unofficial they’ve had already since 1886 in Warsaw their own dependency for the Russian Empire: Roman Plewkiewiczofficial owner, born and commercial educated in Breslau (today: Wroclaw). With his Polish team, they were former sales agents for Müller, Heilbronn; but in 1871 they had changed to »A. Ritter & Cie.«, Esslingen — and of course to the latter »WMF«, where he became 1882 »WMF« Financial Director. Official owner was Gustav Siegle; 1898 Roman Plewkiewicz retired, and Carl Haegele became from 1899 on the owner.

To explain the market possibility of Roman Plewkiewicz, Warsaw: 1886 founded, he has already 1888 = 650.000 Mark turn-over = a quarter of the turn-over of the mother company »WMF«!

I don’t know precise the facts, how long these two dependencies existed parallel — »Roman Plewkiewicz« in Warsaw, has existed at least until the Polish Republic 1921, and then after was sale; and »Alexander Katsch« in Moscow at least until the Revolution 1917?

Since 1892, next to the main range of items made in Geislingen, or Göppingen, additionally they’ve had their own stylistic range for Russian taste.

So I guess that these »tea glass holder« are plated in »Alexander Katsch« Moscow dependency — maybe until 1895?

Kind regards silverport

Madhatterrus
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Re: Glass holders (unusual marks)

Postby Madhatterrus » Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:30 am

Hi silverport,

Thank you so much, I didn't expect such an elaborate answer :) It does help a lot!

Kind regards,
LA

silverport
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Re: Glass holders (unusual marks)

Postby silverport » Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:00 pm

»AK« (Profile, view. to the left) C.T. (Profile, view. to the left)

Hello again

I’ve found in diary a notice, that the general contract between Alfred Krupp and a representative of C. Techelstein was signed in Berlin on 2 June 1848.

The company of »C. Techelstein« was then already busy with Electro galvanic. From which system they had licences, actually I couldn’t find out (Werner Siemens/Henniger?; Elkington/Christofle? …).

The shown mark could be of around 1895 — but who are the persons of the »profiles«?

»Crown / AK / ?« in a shield cartouche: Crown = which crown [German, Russian]? / AK = Alexander Katsch / ? [B = Berlin?]

»Man’s profile« (view to the left), in a semi-circle cartouche: Profile of Alexander Katsch, or Profile of the German Emperor Wilhelm II?

»C.T.« in a round edged rectangular cartouche: Initials of C. Techelstein (C.[ount] Techelstein, or C.[arl] Techelstein?).

»Man’s profile« (view to the left), in a semi-circle cartouche: Profile of C. Techelstein, or Profile of the Russian Emperor Alexander III?

Until yet I also couldn’t find out the identity of C. Techelstein. Is he the person of »Russian Nobility«, mentioned in the Krupp notices — or is the there mentioned person of »Russian Nobility« the in St. Petersburg residing Baron Alexander L. Stieglitz (1814-1884)? Was it Stieglitz who owned »C. Techelstein«?

Thank you there fore, that you’ve presented to »925-1000« the mark, and yours questions!

As you maybe already observed, much more questions remain open yet on A. Katsch and C. Techelstein history.

Kind regards silverport

JnJ
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Re: Glass holders (unusual marks)

Postby JnJ » Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:37 am

Silverport, Thank you so much for the information. Name spelt correctly gives us somewhere to go. But! our cut corner oblong has the letters G.P. which we suppose is the assay mark. Any help there? Best regards.

silverport
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Re: Glass holders (unusual marks)

Postby silverport » Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:56 pm

G.P. isn’t an assay mark — plated isn’t assayed, nowhere on the Globe.

Hello

As you remember from viewtopic.php?f=18&t=16597

The »G.P.« mark there is in Latin — A, K and P could be also Cyrillic letters, but not G.

»G.P.« signification is: Galvanic Plaque = Electro Galvanic Plated

I suppose, that the so marked items were so marked e.g. for Poland.

As already explained, the »G.P.« mark isn’t an assay mark. Nowhere on the Globe are exist similar Assay Offices for Plated. Almost countries which have their own Assay Regulations have also for buyer’s protection contra fraudulence, regulations for signage of plated products.

A very interesting detail is, that almost often is missing an indication of gram silver be used for the plating process — if that miss could also be used as an indication for to find out the time span of production? I think not! Because the West European producer’, e.g. Christofle, has signed their plated products for France and for the export too, with the numeral »84«.

What do you think now on this commercial coup? By the way: Dealer sell now these so marked items as »Russian silver« of »84 Zolotniki«, made by »CHRISTOFLE«! If you see this: It's plated only; 84 Gram were used. Please look here: http://www.925-1000.com/a_platenumbers.html

I suppose, that the Russian regulations for plated products have forbidden the national use of numerals around their »Zolotniki« system = at least these numerals between »62« and »96«; look here: http://www.925-1000.com/Frussia.html

It seems to me that maybe one part of the regulations contra fraudulence was: »They should plate their products as good as ever possible«.

Sorry, but I don’t know the Russian legal requirements for Plated; because I couldn’t read Cyrillic text. With this obstacle, actually it is also impossible for me, to make an internet research for regulation details.

Kind regards silverport

JnJ
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Re: Glass holders (unusual marks)

Postby JnJ » Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:34 am

Silerport, thank you very much for the information. A local antique dealer thought our tray was silver late but when he cleaned a scratch and could not see any base metal he seemed to back off, with a "it's got me beat". It is very heavy for a solid silver piece. Is there any more info on Alexander Katsch? again many thank JnJ.

silverport
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Re: Glass holders (unusual marks)

Postby silverport » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:00 am

More info on Alexander Katsch?

Hello again

More info on Alexander Katsch, I think could well exist, but scarce, and where?

I know one archive, where historical documents of the German »WMF« and their buy of »Alexander Katsch, Berlin« are collected. But when I was there, now 8 years ago, my research program was so immense, and my time so scarce, that I haven’t researched »Alexander Katsch, Berlin« details — I don’t know the volume of the documents (1 page handwritten notices? Or 100 pages, with 10 balances? Catalogues?). So I don’t know also if, and if yes, how many documents or notices on »Alexander Katsch, Moscow« there are kept too.

Sorry, if in Russian archives, or in them of other countries, documents on »Alexander Katsch, Moscow« exist, either I don’t know.

It’s a pity maybe for you, to have found after a long time search a needle in a haystack; but the needle is so much little, that you couldn’t fix there with all the questions you’ve to be solved. Now you’ve a »name« (sorry, not in Cyrillic) for to could search there for. But there for you need at least a basic knowledge in German, Polish and Russian languages.

That the by you consulted dealer, in a scratch of yours tray, couldn’t make out the basic material?

The by Alexander Katsch factory used basic material below the silver surfaces is almost not mentioned by marks struck.

In Poland, Nickel Silver was indicated by e.g. »BM« = »BIAŁO METAL« = white metal. As I've already mentioned before, my assumption is, that the items, marked with »G.P.«, were predeterminated for the Polish market, and for all the other then by Russia governed countries, which had next to the Cyrillic alphabet a national alphabet in Latin (e.g. Estonia, Finland, Lithuania ...).

In 1823 was in Prussia held a competition, for to get a metal alloy, which polished surface would be look like, as to be made from a silver alloy of »12 Lot« = 750-1,000 fineness — but which hasn’t any percent of silver in it’s alloy composition. Reason there fore was the economic miseries, Napoleon had spread over Europe by all his wars.

Winner were in 1824 the »Gebrüder Henniger« (Henniger Bros.), Berlin silversmiths’ — they baptized their alloy composition: »Neusilber« (»New Silver«).

Already in 1823 a chemist, Dr. Geitner, had developed an own alloy composition, which he has baptized to be »Argentan«. But he was excluded from the above mentioned competition; because he was a Saxony, not a Prussian.

Dr. Geitner’s 1823 alloy composition »Argentan«: 55 % copper, 25 % zinc, 20 % nickel.

I suppose that the basic material Alexander Katsch factory has used for their production of plated items was more or less similar as that of Dr. Geitner or the Gebr. Henniger.

So the basic material below the scratch the dealer has observed has an appearance as look like to be made of an 750-1,000 silver alloy.

»It is very heavy for a solid silver piece«, you wrote.

Now you could make some accounts:

Silver: 10.49 kg; Copper: 8.92 kg; Russian »84« zolotniki alloy: 87.5 % Silver, 12.5 % Copper; »Sterling« alloy: 92.5 % Silver, 7.5 % Copper.

Copper: 8.92 kg; Zinc: 7.14 kg; Nickel: 8.908 kg; Nickel Silver (alloy composition a la Dr. Geitner): 55 % copper, 25 % zinc, 20 % nickel. Plus pure Silver (10.49 kg) surface of about 320 gram-360 gram per 1 square metre [or: 50 cm by 50 cm, plated on both surfaces = 80-90 gram solid silver]. Please look here for info on gramage of plated items: http://www.925-1000.com/a_platenumbers.html

»It is very heavy for a solid silver piece«, you wrote.

Permit me please a kindly yoke: Then you must invite Mr. Schwarzenegger, to become your butler if the tray was made from »84« zolotniki or in »Sterling«.

After you’ve now a little bit more knowledge on yours tray, visit maybe again the dealer with a "it's got me beat".

I hope that my, a little bit wide scattered, explanations haven’t boring you to much.

I wish you a happy use of yours tray, and a happy hunting for more info on »Alexander Katsch, Moscow«.

Kind regards silverport

JnJ
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Re: Glass holders (unusual marks)

Postby JnJ » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:30 am

Silverport, you are a wealth of knowledge. On the heavy side of the tray. It is a plain round tray with a diameter of 310mm and a weight of 923 grams. Almost 1 kg of weight in what we consider is a small tray. We will take your advice and visit the dealer again, and we will also make as many enquiries through our other silver friends. We were thrilled to find the tray in the beginning, 16 years ago in St. Petersburg, so any information on its history is really the icing on the cake. Once again, many thanks for your invaluable help. Best regards, JnJ.

Qrt.S
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Re: Glass holders (unusual marks)

Postby Qrt.S » Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:45 pm

It was by a co-incident that I stumbled into this very interesting thread. But better late than ever. Why I read it was only for the reason that it looked like somebody seemed to claim the object to Russian silver and therefore I started to read. I knew that under no circumstances this item couldn't be Russian silver. The marks are not silver marks. However, when reading the whole story it became clear that the object is plated. But the question was about Александр Кач. That is how it is spelled in Russia and I would transliterate it in English to Alexander Kach, but maybe it is transliterated in German to Katsch.

Nevertheless, This company was a large copper-nickel company and also a shop in St Petersburg. It was a Court supplier as well and owned by August Kach and merchant Nizovtsev. In 1865 it also was a silver factory but dealt as well with artificial diamonds, corals, lamps, gold pens with diamond ends and fancy goods (?) According to information from 1885:
Since 1874 Augusta Kach, a Prussian, lives in Berlin in the Europian hotel and trades with copper-nickel items in favour of "Aleksander Kach"

The Kach factory was located in St Petersburg in the house of the catholic church. The silver factory punched marks AK or КАЧ on its silver objects.
Sorry but this is all I found from my sources.

Have a nice evening
Qrt.S

silverport
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Re: Glass holders (unusual marks)

Postby silverport » Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:40 pm

Hello »Qrt.S«

Many thanks for your information — it is that, what I haven’t known until yet.

The owner’s family name I know only in the German transliteration and that is »Katsch«.

My research activity in a German Archive, 8 years ago, was not centred on »Alexander Katsch« — the Berlin Company which the »WMF« was buying in 1889.

Kind regards silverport


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