Russian Silver Gilt & Niello Champagne Flutes

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
GD Seraching
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Russian Silver Gilt & Niello Champagne Flutes

Postby GD Seraching » Tue May 21, 2019 7:00 am

I have this Russian Silver-Gilt & Niello Champagne Flute which I can't identify the marks any help would be welcome.

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Many thanks

dognose
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Re: Russian Silver Gilt & Niello Champagne Flutes

Postby dognose » Tue May 21, 2019 7:13 am

Hi,

Welcome to the Forum.

Please try again with the images and remember to use the Preview feature.

https://postimages.org (copy the 'Hotlink for forums' code) or http://www.tinypic.com (copy the 'IMG Code for Forums & Message Boards') are recommended. Do not use Photobucket or Dropbox.

Ensure your images are embedded. Do not post links.

Trev.

Goldstein
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Re: Russian Silver Gilt & Niello Champagne Flutes

Postby Goldstein » Tue May 21, 2019 10:00 am

Hi GD Seraching -

I post your photo:
Image

Essayer: Dubrovin Nikolaj L. 1822-1855
Maker: Kolotoschin Aleksej F. 1835 -1849, known for his nice niello work, see example:

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Source: PL 2104, 2198-99

Regards
Goldstein

Ubaranda
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Re: Russian Silver Gilt & Niello Champagne Flutes

Postby Ubaranda » Wed May 22, 2019 3:41 am

Goldstein wrote:Essayer: Dubrovin Nikolaj L. 1822-1855
Maker: Kolotoschin Aleksej F. 1835 -1849, known for his nice niello work, see example:
Source: PL 2104, 2198-99


Hi Goldstein!

PL 2198, 2199 - unknown maker. Who is Kolotoschin? Where did you get information about him?
There were several makers with initials AK at that time in Moscow. For example why not Alexey
Kalashnikov (No. 1810 in Ivanov’s book) or Alexey Klemin (No. 1966 in Ivanov’s book) and so on?

Regards.

AG2012
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Re: Russian Silver Gilt & Niello Champagne Flutes

Postby AG2012 » Wed May 22, 2019 4:19 am

Hi,
Not in Skurlov either.
How is his name spelled in Russian ?
Regards

AG2012
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Re: Russian Silver Gilt & Niello Champagne Flutes

Postby AG2012 » Wed May 22, 2019 4:34 am

List of all Moscow silversmiths matching AK initials and assayer`s years in office.
(Skurlov)



КАЛАШНИКОВ Алекс. Алексеевич, 1853

КАРЕЛОВ Андрей Петрович, 1853

КИТОВСКИЙ Алексей Фадеевич, 1852–1853

КЛАПОВСКИЙ Алексей Семенович, 1853

КЛЕМИН Алексей Степанович, 1853

КОТЕЛЬНИКОВ Александр Степанович, 1853–1861

КРАСИЛЬНИКОВ Александр Иванович, 1852

КРУПЕНИКОВ Андрей Павлович, 1853

AG2012
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Re: Russian Silver Gilt & Niello Champagne Flutes

Postby AG2012 » Wed May 22, 2019 4:45 am

He is mentioned in Ярославль (Yaroslav)
Image

AG2012
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Re: Russian Silver Gilt & Niello Champagne Flutes

Postby AG2012 » Wed May 22, 2019 4:54 am

PL 3816 and 3817
But there is no НД assayer in Yaroslavl.
Besides, is there town mark in champagne flutes posted here (it is plural, i.e. flutes, must be town mark in at least one).
Regards

Goldstein
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Re: Russian Silver Gilt & Niello Champagne Flutes

Postby Goldstein » Wed May 22, 2019 7:17 am

Hi AG2012 -

as you may know I am a collector of Russian silver and have the same literature as everybody. In addition, I have connections / exchange of ideas with other, international collectors - including many Russians. From this sources came the name of Kolotoschin - a often found niello spoon maker from Moscow with his striking initial letters.
It is not enough to list all silversmiths with the first letters AK - no matter where they come from - you need an original piece to compare both the quality and the actual hallmark. But you know it all yourself - without a picture of the respective hallmark, an assignment of the name is almost impossible.
The object shown carries a Moscow assaymaster, the data match and the manufacturer's stamp is known. About the name may still lack 100% agreement - there are the super experts who know everything better asked for clear answers. I have expressed my opinion and shown numerous examples (objects). Now I am waiting for a constructive brainstorming - not a senseless enumeration of AKs from all over Russia - it is about Moscow - and we have a photo and my hypothesis with several objects.
I expect constructive, plausible suggestions!
Here some more examples....

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Regards
Goldstein

AG2012
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Re: Russian Silver Gilt & Niello Champagne Flutes

Postby AG2012 » Wed May 22, 2019 8:44 am

There is no controversy here:

1. Again, Kolotoschin Aleksej worked in Yaroslavl, not Moscow. Citizen of Yaroslavl,jeweler and engraver (чеканщик)
Image

2.I have no intention to contradict Goldstein and and the items he shows.They are made by an unknown maker in Moscow whose initials are matching Moscow town mark and the assayer at the time.PL 2198, 2199
There seems to be no problem here.
Regards

Goldstein
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Re: Russian Silver Gilt & Niello Champagne Flutes

Postby Goldstein » Wed May 22, 2019 11:40 am

Hi AG2012 -

I'm just as curious as you who it could be. 2 letters are simply not enough - you need a comparison mark (soothmark or photo). Everything else is not very serious and leads in the wrong direction. Skurlov and Ivanov are not alway helpful.

Regards
Goldstein

Ubaranda
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Re: Russian Silver Gilt & Niello Champagne Flutes

Postby Ubaranda » Thu May 23, 2019 8:31 am

Hello!

Goldstein, can you show examples of similar maker's marks AK with the Yaroslavl assay mark? If not, further discussion doesn't make any sense.

Regards.

Goldstein
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Re: Russian Silver Gilt & Niello Champagne Flutes

Postby Goldstein » Thu May 23, 2019 11:20 am

Hi Ubaranda -

I think I made it clear that I have no source - only the "friendly note" of a collector colleague from Russia. If you know who the maker is - do not hesitate to enlighten me. He is well known among collectors - many beautyful niello spoons etc. exist. PL mention him - but have no name.
Collectors in Russia have often better sources and access to archives I do not have ....

Regards
Goldstein

forksnspoons
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Re: Russian Silver Gilt & Niello Champagne Flutes

Postby forksnspoons » Fri May 24, 2019 4:14 am

Not sure if this could help to the discussion but here is the spoon of the same (I believe) maker.
1845, Moscow

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Image

Qrt.S
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Re: Russian Silver Gilt & Niello Champagne Flutes

Postby Qrt.S » Mon May 27, 2019 10:15 am

Goldstein wrote:Hi Ubaranda -

I think I made it clear that I have no source ...
Regards
Goldstein


This is an interesting input from you Goldstein. You are always so eager to demand, almost force, everybody to reveal their sources. But now when both Ubaranda and AG2012 are asking for your source, you simply claim that you have no source and start to waffle about a "friendly note" from a Russian friend. If I would have said that, you would have immediately stated that "that is a dubious/suspicious/unreliable source worth nothing!!! Such information is worthless etc. etc. !!! Such statements written by you ares often seen here. Now you have guts to say yourself that you have no source! That makes me wonder who is the unreliable source here?

Goldstein!
Here is lesson number 1 for you: From now on, never, NEVER, demand anybody to reveal his source, just believe what is written unless you can show waterproof evidences of it being something else.
Lesson number 2 will be how to make nice and polite inputs not offending anybody.

No reason for you to reply to the above stated. The bridges are burn!

Ubaranda
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Re: Russian Silver Gilt & Niello Champagne Flutes

Postby Ubaranda » Mon May 27, 2019 1:20 pm

Qrt.S, my respect!!!


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