Need help with Russian maker's mark under the Morozov company

[Atlas]

Hello,

Can someone help me with the identity for maker`s mark J.A for the Morozov company?

Thank in advance,

[dognose]

Hi,

Welcome to the Forum.

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Trev.

[Atlas]

[Atlas]

Ok,after some practice managed to post a couple of images here.Nice:-)
So the object is an "ice cream serving spoon".Length 22cm.
The other marks I can manage,except the one on the left.Possibly a workmaster for the Morozov company with initials J.A ?

[Ubaranda]

Perhaps Iohan Allenius. Information from А.Иванов "Мастера золотого и серебряного дела в России (1600-1926)".




Best regards. Alex.

[Atlas]

Thank you very much,Alex.I do appreciate:-)

Best regards,

-Atte-

[Qrt.S]

Please note that Ubaranda stated "perhaps". There are no proofs or other indications that Allenius worked for Morozov. In other worlds a big "maybe!"

[Goldstein]

Ubaranda is right - here the proof:
Morozov was one of the few who allowed the masters (inhouse or extern) to sign their products. Many examples are known.
Here a cakeserver with the initials J.A made by Allenius, sold by the firm of Morozov. Unfortunately a bit overpolished - but clearly visible.

[Qrt.S]

Mind my asking Goldstein but how does a mark showing JA proves that it is Allenius and that he worked for Morozov? It is not impossible but still a maybe...

[Goldstein]

Qrt.S -
you should accustom to underpin your findings with the anouncement of your primary source(s) - otherwise it is just your personal opinion .
As you like endless discussions, here we go and start from the beginning:
The OP asked who the maker JA on a Morozov spoon could be. Ubaranda found it is Allenius , Johann (different ways to write the name in different languages - that is all not new - and pointing to it does not answer OP´s questions!), naming his source with page number and translation.
In the years I handeled Russian silver I often came to Morozov marked objects with additional maker´s marks fully visible.
Mostly JA or BK. Like the Gratschev Brothers, Morozow did not overstamp the other masters. Proof: hundreds of surviving objects. That are facts already known. I could provide other photos as real existing proof - as I did with this cake server. Source: private photo.
Now we can discuss endless if Allenius worked for Morozov, if JA is Allenius, if the spoon and the cake server are fakes, if Morozov sold simple spoons and cake servers or if Ivanov really existed.
For me all questions are answered.

[Qrt.S]

@Goldstein

Of course it is a personal opinion as many of the opinions written here are. You are right about Morozov. He usually didn't over stamp the maker's marks. I know a lot of maker's punches combined with Morozov's mark of which JA is one. Unfortunately JA and some others of them are unknown to name. Read carefully what Ubaranda wrote; "....perhaps Allenius" . He did not state it is A! I supported that statement. You in turn showed some pictures with the mark JA and Morozov claiming them as proofs JA being Allenius...!? It is your opinion only! But as stated earlier it could be Allenius. What your pictures proofs only is that JA and Morozov worked together that's all. Handling (?) with Russian silver does not mean that you know it all. Yes, we can discuss forever is it Allenius or not. I will not. There still quite a lot of Russian makers unknown to name. You ought to know that. Drawing a hasty conclusion based on "proofs" like yours can turn out in a disaster.
I will not discuss this further.

[Goldstein]

Qrt.S -
I just saw your firm statements (as always without naming any source from where your wisdom might come from) beeing coldly refuted by demonstrable evidence in the thread "Bergen maker´s mark 1891". That must be what you mention as ".....can turn out in a disaster."
Back to the topic:
Even Postnikova-Loseva knew Allenius - see photo - and when my rudimentary knowledge of the Russian language do not cheat me, she mentioned spoons and forks - for you - vulgo: cutlery. Allenius also made nice cigarette cases and things like that - photos on request available!
I enclose her mark and the OP´S mark for you to compare - even you have to admit a striking match. What else do you need as proof? An eyewitness who saw the production?
I will try a last time to explain: there are many, many people outside who handle Russian silver on a daily basis since decades - face to face- not from books, the internet or from hear-say! They are connected to dealers, Collectors, auction houses etc. international. If one has a question - there is always one who give his best to answer - within some hours. Absolute competent. Here in this forum are some very knowing members - but they shy often away from this fruitless personal attacks - for what? They know better!
Here the annonced photos:

[Goldstein]

Here again Allenius - the world is full of him....

[Qrt.S]

Really? However, that is not the point in this thread. The main question is: Did Johan Allenius work for Morozov or not? May I also remind you that another Finn, Johan Alberg punched JA around the same time as Allenius in St Petersburg. As I have stated many times, do not make hasty conclusions based on unverified facts. By the way, compare the mark above with P#1760/ Johan Allenius.

[Goldstein]

Qrt.S -
as always: ignoring what is said, ignoring facts and ignoring shown photos.
A new candidate Johan Alberg - but no mark, no bio, no photo - just your vage mentioning it.
Nobody can investigate honestly like that. Hear-say informations, rumors and gossip are not the way.

You should get used to it to underpin (support) everything you write with images or facts from reliable, known sources. Your personal opinions are only interesting if they are based on well known facts. And one thing must be very clear - you did not invented/detected Russian silver - you just repeat what you read in different , more or less up to date books or learned in fora like this. What´s not in your books - you do not know. A little collection (some several 100 objects) would not hurt! You would not believe what you see.
Come down, be nice and polite and willing to exchange what you really know (if you can proof it!). But be prepared that others sometimes know more or have better sources and/or experiences. Only in this way riddles can be solved. Unfriendly behavior lead nowhere.

By the way: in one of the last threads you mentioned that you know the marks of numerous other silversmiths one can find on Morozov objects. I would be very interested in a photo list!

[Qrt.S]

@Goldstein,
Don't teach me!
Where are your poofs that the pictures with JA and Morozov would be Johan Allenius? When I state something it is not enough for you. But when you state that JA is Johan Allenius and he worked with Morozov it is perfectly OK. Where from is that information?

Johan Adolf Alberg a Finn owner of a silver workshop around 1893-94 on Ekaterinhofsky Prospekt 6 and later on Voronezhskaya uliza 37 in St Petersburgh. His punches are ИА, ИAA and JA. See Ivanov #122.

Talking about reliable sources. In your message you are again referring to a completely useless book full of faults, incorrect and insufficient information. It is one of the poor copies of Postnikova....Jorgan Allenius... ???? I wouldn't touch that book not even with a barge pool.
The lists of Morozov's subcontarctors is found in blue Ivanov and Solodkoff's book Russian Gold and Silverwork... and some other books too. Are you familiar with those books?

Please do not distort my writings. I did not write "numerous..." but "some...". There is a difference. Yes the information I provide here comes from various books and from investigating silver objects. I also have a silver collection. Where from is your information except from as for now two lousy books..."well known facts" from the books you are using

The longer I live I learn that the less I know. Therefore I take a critical attitude to disjointed claims. I also have realized ages ago that there is always somebody who knows more than me, but that is not you.
As for me discussion ends here.

[Qrt.S]

Sorry Goldstein, in order to please you I forgot this from my final message above. The list of Morosovs master foremen/subcontractors that I am aware of. The list is probably not complete or not even fully correct but you can correct it and fill in the blanks. Your amendments and additions would be highly appreciated.
Latin
FT is Fredrik Tiander
AH is Adam Herttuainen
IP is Johan Passonen
JА is possibly Johan Allenius ???
AL ?
Cyrillic
AC is Anders Johan Seppänen
ИА ?
ВМ is Vladimir Morosov
НБ ?
МБ ?
ИЛ ?

Thank you in advance.

[Goldstein]

Qrt.S -
you still do not understand: I am in a large international community of people who enjoy Russian silver. They invest much time and money in their hobby and have very productive sources (museums, collectors, auction houses etc.) We communicate and brainstorm about our newest aquisitions. And you can bet the existing knowledge and expertise is very big.

If someone uses a book from G. Watt he is no idiot but perhaps did not have the opportunity to buy better out of print books. If someone uses Ivanov we do not look down on him or give him names - we just be cautious and check what he tells.

Did you ever thought about used up punches? Were the new ones 100% identic? Or little/medium/much different? With the help of let´s say 10 different examples from the same maker in different time periods it is easy. If you have nothing in your hands, only books - what can you say?

Thank you for your "list" - all the marks are out of different books, one is from me. Without photos- worthless. Only a hint to watch out.
We say: No photo - it did not happened.

Wladimir Morozov was the son of I. Morozov. Postnikova-L. #1250

Here a seldom seen puch from him - a butter knife in silver.



Maker: Bogdanov, Michail Postnikova-L. #1331

[Qrt.S]

Thank you for Bogdanov. I didn't know that. I fully share your opinion that no mark, not existing/worthless but wherefrom has the information come?

If someone uses a book from G. Watt he is no idiot but perhaps did not have the opportunity to buy better out of print books. If someone uses Ivanov we do not look down on him or give him names - we just be cautious and check what he tells.

Exactly, I do the same. You use use Watts and Traina!

[Goldstein]

Unfortunately, some people are incapable of resolving disputes in a mature and professional manner. It becomes a full time game and distracts the visitors from letting the forum be what it is intended to be - a congenial gathering place for fans of Russian Silver.