Khlebnikov?

[amena]

Again a question on Russian silver, if fake or genuine.
My argument is very similar to that treated by Ringo in his
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... KOV#p68528
where unfortunately today many photos are no longer visible.
I too found two Russian flatware in a flea market, in the basket of silverplate, and I was somewhat surprised when, after cleaning the manufacturer's mark, I read the name of Khlebnikov.


Even in my flatware the Court supplier mark is connected with the letters, that, as Zolotnik says, is wrong.
However in the picture that enclose, it is evident that the kokoshnik mark was struck after the maker's mark, that in fact is deformed by this.
Finally I have two more questions
In the section devoted to Russians silversmiths, the period of activity of Ivan Khlebnikov is indicated from 1867 to 1871, but the second kokoshnik mark entered into force in 1908. How it’s possible to find both mark together?
What is the round mark beside the Kokoshnik?
Thanks for attention
Amena

[Dad]

You lucky. Never in a flea market Khlebnikov came across to me.

I Congratulate and .... envy...)))

[AG2012]

Although most of Cyrillic letters are just derivative of Hellenic alphabet, it`s obvious that fakers are not familiar with the genuine letters and too often they create grotesque shapes which are readily recognized. Handles are most probably attached with colophony. In a word, handles should be properly marked, too.

[Qrt.S]

I was about to write the same as AG 2012 wrote i.e. look for more marks on the handle and revert to the matter. Every detachable part should carry marks. If there are no more marks to be found......you know the most likely answer.

[Dad]

You are mistaken.
By rules of marking in Russia after 1908: if the handle and a blade are made of one metal (+ one thinnes) and soldered as a single whole, the handle didn't have marking.

But, I Agree, need big foto.

[amena]

Hello. Thank you all for expressing your views.


The handles are not marked, and I do not know exactly how they are connected with the blades. In the connection point of the blade of cake knife seem to be seen a line of welding, but could also be connected with colophony. As far as I know the only way to know it for sure, would be to warm the handles up to the softening point of the colophony, but I do not want to run the risk of ruining everything.
It seems to me important to point out the deformation of the maker’s mark in the fork.

As seen in the photo, the mark on the blade of the cake knife is completely straight, while the one on the fork has a ripple.
This ripple is clearly caused by the blow of the kokoshnik mark , which then was struck after the maker's mark.
In this case, then the forger must have the complete set of punches, which is quite worrying.
Surfing the Internet I found the answer to my second question, but I have not yet discovered the precise meaning of the small round mark alongside the kokoshnik
Every comment will be welcome
Best
Amena

[Qrt.S]

Dad says that marking all detachable parts is not necessary after 1908. I'm not aware of such a regulation but He might be right. Nonetheless, the new pictures show that the quality is high. Therefore I withdraw my statement of your objects being possibly fakes and congratulate you for a fine finding. Undoubtedly the marks are a bit "smudgy" but I still consider the objects as genuine....A closer look would interest me :-))) Pictures do not always tell the truth because they are only pictures after all.

Yes the kokoshnik mark has caused the deformation. On a Russian made object the hallmark cannot by law be struck unless the maker's mark is not struck first. In case there is only a hallmark and no maker's mark, the object is imported to Russia and hallmarked by the request of the customs. That happened before the actual import marks were introduced. This is not the case. If you read other threads here on these Russian sites you will find much more information on how the hallmarking system worked in imperial Russia.

The handle is usually "fixed/glued" with resin/colophony or a mix of resin and very fine sand. Do not warm up the handle! It is completely unnecessary unless it is loose. You might cause damage that is very costly to repair. By the way, silver is not welded but sometimes soldered. Welding is too hot.

The small round hallmark is usually punched when an object consists of several detachable parts. In such a case this round mark is found on all separate parts and the oval kokoshnik with the round hallmark on the main body. It was introduced in 1913. You can also see a dot behind the neck. Its location tells us that the object i assayed in Moscow. Other location means another town. A dot under the chin is St Petersburg. There can be several dots. You can verify Moscow by looking at the oval kokoshnik where a Greek letter "delta" behind the neck is seen, also indicating Moscow.

The company of Hlebnikov was founded by Ivan Hlebnikov in St Petersburg in 1867. As from 1870 also in Moscow. After Ivan's death 1881 his sons Mihail, Aleksey, Nikolay and Valdimir took over. The same year it was granted the court supplier mark. Firm of Hlebnikov ceased to exist in 1918 for reason we all know.

[Dad]

Qrt.S, for an illustration told by me:






It is a fragment from "Rules".... 1908. For convenience I translated the text emphasized by the red line:

"If the handle is an artwork and punch can damage it, the oval mark (troynik) + the sign of the certificate (small round) are put on the blade. Of course, if blade and handle the silver. And soldered."

[Dad]

The small round hallmark is usually punched when an object consists of several detachable parts. In such a case this round mark is found on all separate parts and the oval kokoshnik with the round hallmark on the main body. It was introduced in 1913.

Why 1913?

1908

[Qrt.S]

Green Ivanov down on page 351. My Russian is not good enough and the English translation not so good in Ivanov but 1913 as I understand it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[amena]

Hello Qtrs
I thank you very much indeed, whether for the good news, which of course makes me happy, whether for the accurate and detailed information that you have given, and I think they are of great interest to others attending the forum also.
Among other, now I know the difference between English words welding and soldering.
Best regards
Amena

[Aguest]

Very helpful thread, very well detailed pics and accent arrows.
You never know what will be in a big basket of silver plate.