2 Kovsh's Ovchinnikov (my last hope of real)

[klingert1974]

Forgive me if I wrote anything I am not allowed. I checked to see what we are not allowed to write and made no mention of prices. I'm not sure if was allowed to name the valuation company though sorry.

I have here 2 kovsh's both from Mikhail Ovchinnikov. The first one I am showing has a valuation certificate from one of Australia's leading valuers (Klepner's). The valuer (Ronnie Bauer) seems to have great accreditation so surely this one has got to be real. I googled him but I still wouldn't be surprised if somehow someone faked the valuation certificate lol.

I purchased the second Kovsh from the same person but this hasn't been authenticated so I took a big risk buying it because was very expensive. I will get authenticated sometime this year.

First Kovsh - 113gms, 125mm long x 62mm wide x 70mm highest point...




2nd Kovsh 382gms - 200mm long x 110mm wide x 95mm highest point...

[piette]

Dear Klingert,
I fear that the news is bad... When it comes to Russian silver, you simply cannot place your trust in dealers or 'valuers'. The only solution is to learn for yourself by reading the forum, acquiring and reading the right books (you will find plenty of recommendations on the forum) and by handling authentic objects to familiarise yourself with the quality and style. As one forum member so often has told me: There is no point learning about fake Russian silver. Only learn about real Russian silver, because the fakes are constantly changing but the authentic pieces always stay the same.
Once you have the knowledge, you can buy carefully to build up a nice collection of authentic objects. I would recommend taking these items back to the dealer you bought them from...
Best wishes,
P

[klingert1974]

Thankyou for the reply. Oh well, there goes my collecting of Russian silver. I had pretty much stopped anyway but I think out of all 50+ pieces I had collected, not 1 is real.
They should make it a criminal act for big auction houses around the world to sell all these items when they clearly are fake and they advertise as authentic. But then there probably wouldn't be any auction houses left except maybe 5. I'm not even talking about the online only ones. Most of my stuff came from legitimate ones from the UK, America and Germany.

I shall stop sulking and think may have to start collecting beanie babies or something now but they probably are mostly fake too LOL.

I wish came to this site from day 1 because has been very enlightening and helpful. Thankyou all for helping me :)

[Qrt.S]

Yes, I'm afraid piette is absolutely right in his statement, sorry. You are as well right in in saying that the auction houses should pay more attention to what they are claiming and selling. Why isn't it criminalized to sell fakes? You tell me. Unfortunately the sellers' prime task is to sell and sell only. As long as there are people buying without knowing what they buy, the market of fake objects especially Russian once and in particular objects made in the cloisonne techniques will flourish. If you think for a second of the enormous amount of Russian cloisonne objects flooding on the worldwide markets you must wonder where from are they? All in almost mint conditions and still over 100 years old!!!! Is this a never ending flow...? Their origin is obvious, most of them are fakes. I'd also like to use an expression often seen on these sites. In general it concerns everything you intend to buy but especially Russian silver: If you don't know what you are buying, don't buy it! An other one: Do not believe in stories told by the seller, believe in your own knowledge and eyes only!

The Russians used their objects. They didn't "collect" them in vitrines as some of us do to today. Why isn't it any signs of wear and tear on most of the objects on the current markets?

If you have the possibility of returning the objects shown, do it!

[Qrt.S]

Mind my asking but you mention that

I purchased the second Kovsh from the same person but this hasn't been authenticated so I took a big risk buying it because was very expensive. I will get authenticated sometime this year.

Would it be possible that when you get this "authentication" you would show it here. I and probably not only I would be very interested in seeing what it states.

Thank you in advance.

[klingert1974]

Yes I will do that for sure. I was going to show the picture of the first certificate but wasn't sure if was allowed

[oel]

Hi Klingert,

Try to get a hold of online catalogues by some major auction houses like Bonham’s, you will be surprised how many items are described; with pseudo Russian marks. For example:

With pseudo(fake) Ovchinnikov's mark


NB. Only shown as an exception to clarify my point; it looks like kovsh's bearing pseudo Russian marks are sought after, hence the shown prices.
Oel.

[Qrt.S]

I cannot understand why it would be forbidden to show a document here related its topic. Please show it.

[Aguest]

I see the overall point about not studying fakes, only study the authentic pieces. I acknowledge the wisdom of this statement.

However, I still would like to know that most of the enamel objects seem to be actually made by Russian silversmiths during
the 19th century but someone has overstamped the original hallmarks with more desirable hallmarks (e.g. Ovchinnikov, Klingert)
in order to increase the value of the object.

There is not a factory somewhere producing fake Russian enamel silver objects, is this correct?

I am sticking to average quality Russian spoons and staying away from the enamel spoons, until I have more knowledge
which I am learning thanks to the experts here who are so kind to help people, even though the same questions are often posed.

[dognose]

Hi Klingert,

Posting the content of such a report would probably be acceptable, but please on no account reveal the identity of the individual/company, or provide any clue as to the person that issued it. At the end of the day such reports are the opinion of those that are employed to do just that, give an opinion, and they are entitled to give their opinions just as we are entitled to give ours, the choice of what you believe and accept is up to you.

Whilst I sure some would enjoy getting into a 'name and shame' situation, it is not they, but the website's owners that get stuck with any possible legal ramification.

Trev.

[Qrt.S]

There is not a factory somewhere producing fake Russian enamel silver objects, is this correct?

I'm afraid it isn't. There are many factories in some countries currently producing fake Russian enameled objects especially in cloisonnee. As I stated before the wast majority of those objects on the market are faked. Therefore they look brand new and are not worn, "dirty" or even the slightest damaged. A period of more than 100 years leaves always some kind of marks on an object!

However, your are right in saying that original Russian objects could be over stamped with famous maker's marks but they are in minority.

Please find below a real Lew Oleks' assaying mark from almost the same year. Compare it with the marks on your items. For your information some remarks:
The notches on 84 were implemented 1882 on this stub mark. Oleks initials are not either enough. There must be a year connected to them etc. etc. etc....



I rather not discuss more fakers' faults here...

[AG2012]

Too many issues to discuss (style, craftsmanship, enameling etc), but this is enough: is this supposed to be St George slaying the dragon?
Metal stamps were very expensive only a few decades ago. I have no idea what happened but they are easily available now.
``We offer a broad selection of metal stamps and tools for making hand stamped jewelry``
Stamping on Metal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ7etisColE
Still, they cannot match genuine features of old hand cut steel stamps.
On the other hand, do not give up if you like Russian silver; there are many nice pieces not lucrative to fake - but do not start with the most famous makers and enamel.
Kindest regards

[Zolotnik]

Hi klingert 1974 -

your enamel is produced in factorys of low-wage countries like India or Thailand who are masters of counterfeiting what ever you want - from stone statues to faucets.
If your order is more than 10 pieces they are happy to oblige. In the meantime, they have a large repertoire of a variety of models at reasonable prices, to which they have access. The stamping with the phony marks is done elsewhere.
As a collector never in your life would you find two identic kovshi - but internet makes it possible - you can have 2, 3 or more of the same model, even in different colours. Always provided with the most famous silversmith stamps.That should make your brain work.

Here some photos of the grotesque forms available:






Always be cautious and suspicious and do your homework BEFORE you buy or if you are unsure: ask the forum!

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

What do we learn from all above? Yes, we learn what have been told here numerous times i.e. DO NOT BUY UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE BUYING! This warning is especially meant for objects made in cloisonnée techniques but is as well a general warning! If you still buy blind, it will most likely sooner or later cost you blood, sweat and tears not to mention lost money and sometimes a lot of it!