How to identify fake saltthrones

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Zolotnik
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How to identify fake saltthrones

Post by Zolotnik »

Hi all -

After Russian saltthrones are since months available in larger quantities in online auctions and auction houses worldwide (although they are very rare), an unmistakable identifying sign of forgeries is explained here:
1) are the marks as they should be and on time - and most important on the right places?
2) is the quality as it should be, are the details correct?
3) is the overall impression brand new - or age-appropriate (we speak about more than 150 years)?
4) are the hinges for the seat cover made of two-pieces or simply an axis with a ball etc.? See red arrows on the photos.

One NO is enough to go away!

Authentiv objects

Image
Image
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Typical fake ( with famous name of course)

Image

Regards
Zolotnik
Qrt.S
contributor
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Re: How to identify fake saltthrones

Post by Qrt.S »

One Silver forum reader, (admin edit)asked me to forward these comments:

Zolotnik’s advises is missing the target. The first 3 points are general not only for salt thrones, but all Russian silver, not to say any antique silver. Further, the forgeries of enamel salt thrones are not a phenomena the last months, it has been ongoing for 2 decades.
The 4th advise is unclear. What to look for, the axis ending or what?? As comes to the hinges, the axis center could be above the lid, or under, the axis is in one part, and often, for the general box-shaped type of thrones Zolotnik is showing, with soldered balls in the ends of the axis. The ending of the axes varies from silversmith to silversmith.

Are Zolotniks advices any guidance for anybody? Why doesn’t Zolitnik speak out of at least one of the suggestions he made, correct stamping? The argument that it makes life easier for forgers is not valid. Art historians has since long escaped from that view, for paintings is Art Signature Dictionary available on the net, it discloses more forgeries than it creates. And Silverforum has an extensive list of hallmarks?

First rule, if a salt throne is hallmarked St Petersburg, it is a fake. There are, from hundreds and hundreds of salt thrones known, only 3 that has St Petersburg as origin. Same comes to Kiev and Odessa, salt thrones is a local Kostroma and Moscow specialty.
The Moscow hallmarking practice was silversmiths stamp on the bottom and under the lid, assayers triple (or double) on bottom and city mark under the lid. This minimum rule is self-explanatory, the lid, as removable, should also be stamped.
Now, a general view is that additional stamping is suspicious, under the assumption that forgers would like to impress. When it comes to salt thrones this is perfectly wrong. It is very common that smiths stamp (and then the assayers city stamp next to) is on the back of the back, sometimes, but more seldom (by reasons not to stamp into the most visible ornament) on the front of the back. Further, it is common to stamp on one of the sides of the box, or on the footings, smith and city. All in all up to 4 silversmiths stamps, and assayers city mark. The full triple with the fineness only at the bottom. (These observations makes the Zolotnik stamp shown, 84, and no other on the front of the back to be extraordinary uncommon, and thus not guiding, rather misleading, the reader of what to look for).

This is the Moscow practice. In Kostroma occurs something else. Both the assayers GB and AS (Latin transcription) under the 1899-1908 assaying regime, has stamped the triple at the box side close to the smith initials, and city mark on the bottom, as well as additional at least one (under the lid). Back-stamp occurs here, as in Moscow.
These comments regards silver salt thrones, not enameled. The enameling fashion is depraving the original silver interpretation of rural salt cellars in Russia; - they have pagan symbols, pierced back and traceable silversmiths. For cloisonne enameled salt thrones, the opposite is most often the case.

Requested task accomplished

Qrt.S
Last edited by oel on Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Off topic
Zolotnik
Posts: 1024
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:35 am
Location: Germany

Re: How to identify fake saltthrones

Post by Zolotnik »

One Silver Forums reader asked me to forward these comments (it must be a joke!):

Is a collector of (censored) spoons able to speak about Russian saltthrones he never had the chance to see face to face, touch or examine? Can he claim revelations without naming the sources or post meaningful photos of objects in his posession to verify the unclear claims? Can he copy texts from books, although he has not really understood the content and they are off topic?
Can he get polemic, personal, bitchy, rude?

Answer: Yes he can. This is an open Forum and everybody can write what he wants - true or not - often good for a healthy lough.

Regards
Zolotnik
Qrt.S
contributor
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Re: How to identify fake saltthrones

Post by Qrt.S »

No it is not a joke. There are people that don't want to or cannot register just read the insert

Zolotnik is giving the reader a show-case of salt thrones, and his advise — to avoid fakes - is
2) is the quality as it should be, are the details correct?
And not giving the reader any guidance of what to look for? His advice is maybe in some sense relevant, but far from sufficient for the subject he raises. He leaves the reader in ignorance, in the darkness.

The quality and details — the full appearance - are to be sought and understood in the overall salt chair tradition of central Russia. The single two traditional salt chairs Zolotnik shows have a common square-box wooden prototype, picked up by Sazikow for a silver variety in Moscow in mid-1900 century.

Image
Courtesy Sergiev Posad State Museum, Moskovskaya oblast

The shown bulldog-squared salt thrones, with rectangular back or pentagonal, with bended upper side, have all saw-teeth sides on back and lid, often with trompe d’oeil horizontal wood withe-bended box. This style have then been copied/refined by Ikonnokov, Kazakov, Svesnikov, Semjonov and others, all in Moscow. Ovchinnikow and Khlebnikov, the giants and the standardizers followed the style and the market trend, and went enamelling.

The original silver ones are heavy compared to size, and on the back often a circular symbol (a sun). Sometimes pierced with 4 windows, sometimes as presentation gifts to married couple, a cockerel (fertility symbol), at the back or, not to be that expressive, inside the lid. This style became the trendsetter of salt thrones, and created the cloisonné enamelling fashion, far from the purer silver interpretation of the salt throne tradition.

What Zolotnik show-cases are leaving behind is the overall, and in details, more interesting tradition from Kostroma, represented by silversmiths as Manilov and Blochin. No bulldog boxes were made there. Lighter, higher back, always pierced, using traditional pagan or floral ornaments. The symbols were the pierced sun (good harvest), horses (wealth), sirins (mythological birds with female head), pierced cockerels, pierced saw-teeth and plow-tip ornaments. Thinner silver, no casting.

One ornamental expression from the traditional peasant life to be significant to salt throne backs was the gable of a traditional wooden Russian cottage, izba. The roof angle supported of the pagan symbols was refined by the Moscow traditional style silversmiths, Baladanova, Goloschakov, Fuld and Ryndin, and exploited by Kazakov, Ovchinnikov and others. Maybe this is all details, but isn’t it that we are advised to look for?

What is all this aiming at? Maybe to say that Russian salt thrones are of a little wider range of silver art than Zolotnik has showed us, and scrutinizing quality and details gain of an understanding of the spectrum, and a little of art history in this context. When Zolotnik says that the wolf is around the corner — fakes - he means enamel. Anyone is probably welcomed give advice to the readers to be more observant, - but also to explain why, and most important, give the reasons, give constructive information and not mix up pure silverware with enamelled.

Then, technical details, - how about that? Most of what we see of the silversmiths mentioned, and most of the others, is engraved and chased by high quality artisans, all sides, often floral or on the lid using Greece/roman classic patterns, salt thrones are not ordinary salt cellars, engraved by apprentices. The back of the back is not left to be only a backside. It is also chased.

Salt thrones were most often for give-away, with engraved dedications or proverbs, maybe not meant to be for daily use as salt cellars, but as a memory. Anyhow, they are always gold washed inside for the box to stand the salt, if only small remains of gold, they have been used.

But maybe Zolotnik is not talking or salt thrones, but enamelled items in general, and his favourite subject, fakes?? If so, why not examine enamelling and give advice on the real stuff, and touch on the fakes, if necessary, point out the differences, and use the giant photo archive mainly copied from Internet? Why is Zolotnik talking of salt thrones, when he is addressing cloisonné fakes in general and not of genuine Russian silver salt thrones? And why publish, and present, some nonsense advises not asked for, and no reasons for, on a specific narrow branch of Russian silver, if aiming to send out the constant warning over enamel?
This contribution to the forum on salt throne science is aimed to fill some gaps, earlier left wide-open.

There is probably a common view among readers that the Silver forum stays open for also a Russian silver dialogue with a wide participation, more voices, less nonsense, less fakeism.
Zolotnik
Posts: 1024
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:35 am
Location: Germany

Re: How to identify fake saltthrones

Post by Zolotnik »

Hi -
Perhaps it has escaped your attention that 90% of the posts in the forum consist of fakes. The respondents are mostly layman, amateurs or buyers who know little or nothing about Russian silver or enamel that they have actually purchased. You must have noticed that because you eagerly are always the first to answer this posts. The long sermon on Salt thrones you copied from various books and try to sell as your opinion/knowledge, has the evidence of professional experience, which do not have the posters in any case. If you have this knowledge you do not need my advice!
For this clientel I wrote the "How to identify fake saltt thrones". It is valide for silverIand enamel! If you would have seen/handeled several authentic or fake objects you easily had seen the giveaway yourself - maybe not.
I would like to see some salt thrones from Kostroma and the other described models - a photo tells more than thousand words -- must be no problem for you I think.
Qrt.S wrote:This contribution to the forum on salt throne science is aimed to fill some gaps, earlier left wide-open.
It would only be fair to name the actual author...

By the way salt thrones are not faked since 20 years ( I bought all my objects around this time - without any doubts) - they flood the market since 2 years - just monitore auctionsites and auction houses - you will see the evolution (nearly everything has been faked already - so what is left?
Qrt.S
contributor
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Location: Helsinki Finland

Re: How to identify fake saltthrones

Post by Qrt.S »

May I remind you Zolotnik that I already in the beginning stated that I'm only forwarding text. May I also remind you that it is bad ethics in this environment to demand to know the author's name!

Qrt.S


Further reply to Zolotnik:
Zolotnik wrote: Is a collector of (censored) spoons able to speak about Russian saltthrones he never had the chance to see face to face, touch or examine?

Regards
Zolotnik
Zolotnik is spotting contributors to the forum, not only that, he is stalking them, in order to disqualify them as incompetent. He is addressing , not the subject discussed, but who is who that dares to comment. Again, he is wrong in his wild guesses.
Zolotnik wrote: Can he claim revelations without naming the sources or post meaningful photos of objects in his possession to verify the unclear claims?
Regards
Zolotnik
Interesting. ”photos of objects in his possession” or ”photos of objects in his possession”? Unfortunately, a lot of photos from internet are circulated, and even published in this forum, without any ”possession” or copyright or source. Frequently, and not in the intention of the original owner, of the photo or of the object.

By the above reasons, one can suspect that contributors (not the questioners) will be hesitant to provide photos. Some are already.
Zolotnik wrote:One Silver Forums reader asked me to forward these comments (it must be a joke!):

Can he copy texts from books, although he has not really understood the content and they are off topic?

Regards
Zolotnik
Yes, he can copy, but for what reason in this context? There is not much written on the specific subject on how the exact stamping is appled to salt thrones, in practice. In theory, yes, for assayers, but not how it turns out in reality. Thats the basic reason for my first reply to Zolotniks incomplete advice.

Further, for example, to copy an exhibition catalogue of 150 pages of salt thrones , with the hallmarking photographed, is this forum the place to reproduce that? Such sources are absolutely not off topic, and clearly understood. Why is Zolotnik regarding contributors as illiterate?
Zolotnik wrote: Yes he can. This is an open Forum and everybody can write what he wants - true or not - often good for a healthy lough.

Regards
Zolotnik
Zolotnik is ironically hinting that my contribution is not facts or truth, suggesting a laugh. I welcome all readers to laugh, giving no hint to what.

Published on request from another reader
Qrt.S
oel
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Re: How to identify fake saltthrones

Post by oel »

Hi All,

We better stop the endless personal discussions before it turns into a soap drama. Reminder to Qrt.S, Hephaistos and Zolotnik; play the ball and not the person, feel free to have your own opinion. We look forward to reading your contributions.
The 925-1000 forum is an internet resource for research of Silver Marks, Hallmarks, Trademarks & Maker's Marks found on Antique and Vintage silver and not a forum to fight personal battles. If any forum member should feel offended please contact our site administrator.

Regards,

Oel.
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