16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
oel
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Re: 16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

Postby oel » Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:27 pm

From Leimat site Turku town mark 17th century soot marks:

Image
No 6

Image
No:7
Image
No;8
Image

For comparison; Turku to be or not to be?

Indeed you would expect a maker's mark, instead town mark Turku(?) only. Is it possible the maker's mark is on the missing piece of the handle. Were town mark and maker's mark spread over a silver object made in Turku 16th century ? Time period 1570 to about 1650.

Swedish hallmark rules in nut shell;
In the course of the 16th century, the town marks are implemented with the local coat of arms. Marc Rosenberg calls the town mark a "Beschauzeichen" = hallmark up till 1860.
In 1689 the year letters were introduced by the Swedish Mint Master Antoni Grill for Stockholm, which were subsequently introduced into a number of other cities, and were prescribed throughout the Swedish Kingdom/Empire by the decree of the May 29, 1758. Implemented in 1759, identical and uniform to the Stockholm date letter sequence.
In 1752 the Swedish state took control of precious metal minimum standard, The State standard mark with the Swedish Imperial crest, the three crowns in a three-pass, was introduced. Source Marc Rosenberg Band IV/Ausland Schweden.

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=48574&hilit=sweden+oel&start=20#p146917

If above stated is correct and answered yes, I could lean towards Turku, also respect other opinion.

Peter.

Sasropakis
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Re: 16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

Postby Sasropakis » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:48 pm

Finnish silver from 17th century is very rare so I couldn't find that many examples online for hallmark comparison. Here's one from the National Museum of Finland: https://www.finna.fi/Record/musketti.M012:H2792:7 There are also some real life photos in a book by Raimo Fagerström "Silver in the Collections of the National Museum of Finland".

Hallmarks in the 17th century included basically only the town mark and the makers mark and in Turku the year letter was first used in 1734 and the three crowns hallmark was introduced in 1750s. Based on the pictures of actual hallmarks the town marks and the makers marks vere usually stamped very close to eachother as shown in the link above. Usually in small objects like spoons the hallmarks are placed horizontally rather than vertically like in the item found in Utrecht. It's difficult to judge by the pictures but to me the crowned A in the knife hilt seems to be to large to be from Turku. But of course I can't make extensive comparation and the practices of hallmarks probably varied during the 17th century so I can't say for sure.

Overall 17th century silver from Finland is very rare and the survived flatware basically consists of spoons. There are apparently no silver knives made in Turku or other Finnish towns from that period in the collections of the National Museum as they aren't any shown in the book by Fagerström although most likely some were made by Finnish silversmiths. I couldn't find any listings in Finna from other museum collections either. So if the knife found in Utrecht would be from Turku that would be a rare find indeed. But to me it just doesn't look like that so in this case I agree with Qrt.S.

legrandmogol
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Re: 16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

Postby legrandmogol » Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:08 am

thank you for your opinion and also for the references. I will be sure to add that book to my library as it looks incredibly useful. As for the handle, I think its very Dutch in style but the mark is very not Dutch so it has me stumped. Hopefully something conclusive pops up

Sasropakis
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Re: 16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

Postby Sasropakis » Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:46 am

I guess you could ask directly from the National Museum of Finland about the knife. If it happens to be indeed from Turku I think they would be interested in knowing about it. Here's a short introduction in English about their historical collections and contact information: https://www.kansallismuseo.fi/en/collec ... n-kokoelma

Raimo Fagerströms book is a very good introduction to Finnish silver. It has real life pictures of the hallmarks of the featured items and a catalogue of the Finnish silversmiths and their initial. The book is in Finnish (the title is "Hopeaa Suomen kansallismuseon kokoelmissa") but it has a summary and also the captions in English so it's quite useful even for non Finnish speakers. And it's fairly cheap too; I bought mine for €5 when it was on sale and you can probably find it in online antiquarian bookshops.

Qrt.S
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Re: 16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

Postby Qrt.S » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:37 am

@legrandmogol

Before I attended this discussion, the mark was discussed with some of my friends (Finns, but not dilettantes). We all totally agreed that the mark is not from Turku (note the spelling!). Then I provided Oel with the link he showed on 24.6. at 2:52. All Turku town marks are clearly visible on the site. None of them resembles your mark close enough. Did you even check the link? In case you didn't here it is again: https://www.leimat.fi/en/localitymarks/ ... -t-z/turku . Please, take a look.

Now additional material has been provided by Sasropakis (also a Finn) and Oel. All talking against the mark being Finnish. Moreover, I didn't expect anybody to demand a whole novel written by me or anybody telling that the mark is not Finnish. I thought my word would be enough but it wasn't for you. I am respectful, how about you? Anyway, more evidences have been showed. I hope you are you satisfied now?
Now please check the the French connection; Angers 1747. You will find a very similar mark in English Tardy on page 142. France has been mentioned in several inputs. Most likely your piece is of French origin. Also the geography talks for that.

oel
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Re: 16th Cenury Dutch? French? Silver knife hilt

Postby oel » Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:34 pm

Update:
For reference nothing more nothing less.
Year letter, Town mark Turku & maker's mark close to each-other.
Image
Turku 1742 date mark, Turku location mark, Jonas Lexell, Oltermanni hallmark.
Tyra Bor, Guld- och Silversmeder i Finland. Deras Stäplar och Arbeten 1373-1873, Abo/Stockholm, 1977 (original edition 1935) https://www.leimat.fi/en/localitymarks/ ... -t-z/turku.



We probably all noticed but never asked the next question. Is there another mark under or attached to the cross-line of the A? Could it be the letter C or G or other symbol?
Image

Peter.

Gratitude;
Dr. Wim Nys
Senior Adviseur – Hoofd Collectie en onderzoek DIVA
http://www.divaantwerp.be


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