Unknown European Tablespoons - P.G GC and Lion Passant

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bstaunto
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Unknown European Tablespoons - P.G GC and Lion Passant

Postby bstaunto » Tue Dec 25, 2018 6:57 am

Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone had any idea about these spoons?

I thought maybe Dutch? But have no real idea!

Any thoughts appreciated.

Ben

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oel
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Re: Unknown European Tablespoons - P.G GC and Lion Passant

Postby oel » Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:56 pm

Hi Ben, not Dutch perhaps German, not sure.

Peter.

Traintime
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Re: Unknown European Tablespoons - P.G GC and Lion Passant

Postby Traintime » Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:44 pm

Ben, we had something recently also involving a similar lion-like mark. (Note apparent tongue and reversing tail here...not completely crude and slightly refined...not a gryphon/griffon, but a lion rampant or walking left.) Oel has eliminated the need to search one area. So, we may be looking along that Prussian-Russian influence zone that other thread led to...search "Dorpat" and see Tartu, Riga, etc. coming up...one possible region (but strict spoon constructionists may have more info on your eras). Within Germany proper there seems to be only one city mark that changes from shields to ovals and back that might relate here, but I'm having my own doubts.
To be read humorously...since this site is less of "Ask Mr. Wizard" and more of "God Helps Those Who Help Themselves", I'll note this...we have (right side) a city/region mark coupled with an assay master mark..in addition is the presumed maker mark (left side) reading "P dot G", "P pellet G", or "P.G" (not that the search engine will easily pick this up).
I'm not one for rapping knuckles with rulers, but it may be neccessary to pound on keys to get answers.

Theoderich
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Re: Unknown European Tablespoons - P.G GC and Lion Passant

Postby Theoderich » Tue Dec 25, 2018 7:05 pm

Bauske had a similar hallmark but in Leistikow is no maker PG or GC ...
The shape of spoon looks a little bit french.

Traintime
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Re: Unknown European Tablespoons - P.G GC and Lion Passant

Postby Traintime » Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:30 pm

Adjustment: Lion is Passant, not Rampant.

Traintime
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Re: Unknown European Tablespoons - P.G GC and Lion Passant

Postby Traintime » Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:25 am

Another example of a confusing "passant oval": viewtopic.php?f=48&t=28134&p=68982&hilit=passant+oval#p68982

Besides all the problems of pseudo-marks, there is an extensive list of German towns using lion marks....and they come up in other countries too. What may be more helpful is that your sample seems to be in a circle rather than strict oval...perhaps check measurements to see if it is round.

Aguest
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Re: Unknown European Tablespoons - P.G GC and Lion Passant

Postby Aguest » Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:31 pm

The first thing I thought of as well is "looks French" - what about an area with combined German and French influences like the "Alsace-Lorraine" region - that is just a guess at this point ::

I'm not sure I have ever heard of any silver from the "Alsace-Lorraine" region, now that I think about it :::::

AG2012
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Re: Unknown European Tablespoons - P.G GC and Lion Passant

Postby AG2012 » Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:05 am

Hi,
The lion of this form in an oval was used in Bauska,Latvia, in 18th century.
Also, I have an Austrian 18th century spoon of exactly the same back of the bowl.
Reference literature is not with me at the moment,but Austria-Hungary could be another possibility.
Regards

amena
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Re: Unknown European Tablespoons - P.G GC and Lion Passant

Postby amena » Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:40 am

I think it's from Florence, end of the eighteenth.
Below two examples
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Best
Amena

Theoderich
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Re: Unknown European Tablespoons - P.G GC and Lion Passant

Postby Theoderich » Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:01 pm

amena wrote:I think it's from Florence, end of the eighteenth.
Below two examples

Best
Amena


Nice .. You got it.

Aguest
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Re: Unknown European Tablespoons - P.G GC and Lion Passant

Postby Aguest » Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:22 pm

Is this the aforementioned example from Latvia? :: If not Latvian, I kind of thought it was Romanian and I put it in a drawer, but now that I saw this thread, I found this spoon :::: I know the "12" stands for "12 Loth," so that would make me search through Germany first, but perhaps this could add to this thread and help someone in the future :::::

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The form of the spoon just reminded me of Romania, but it could be Latvian? :: Is this just similar to the Florence Lion? :::

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Aguest
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Re: Unknown European Tablespoons - P.G GC and Lion Passant

Postby Aguest » Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:33 pm

Stuttgart Germany shows a running horse with an assay master mark in-between the legs-in-motion, just in case that is a possible candidate ::::

Theoderich
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Re: Unknown European Tablespoons - P.G GC and Lion Passant

Postby Theoderich » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:54 am

Aguest wrote:Is this the aforementioned example from Latvia? :: If not Latvian, I kind of thought it was Romanian and I put it in a drawer, but now that I saw this thread, I found this spoon :::: I know the "12" stands for "12 Loth," so that would make me search through Germany first, but perhaps this could add to this thread and help someone in the future :::::

it is Romanian
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Qrt.S
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Re: Unknown European Tablespoons - P.G GC and Lion Passant

Postby Qrt.S » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:10 pm

@Theoderich

Mind my asking but I'm lost now. Is your only argument it being Romanian the very similar initials MG, or? I cannot find anything in my books indicating that the lion (?) mark to the right would indicate Romania. Anyway, the dolphin mark on your spoon was used 1906-1926, but the other spoon has a 12 loth fineness mark indicating it being from earlier than 1880. Maybe it is Romanian, but on what basis?

huszas76
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Re: Unknown European Tablespoons - P.G GC and Lion Passant

Postby huszas76 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:45 pm

Dear Qrt.s!
I agree with Thederic.
This assumption is partly based on the assumption that Romanian territories adjacent to Transylvania were likely to work with a similar signaling system, and that many similar ones were found in that region, sometimes with romanian hallmarks, and typical decoration and style.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=34447&p=90077&hilit=roumanian#p90077
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=34117&p=87920&hilit=roumanian#p87920
But we are waiting some real written source.
Best regards!
Krisztián

Qrt.S
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Re: Unknown European Tablespoons - P.G GC and Lion Passant

Postby Qrt.S » Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:03 pm

Dear Krisztián

I do not disagree, I only like to know the reasons (see evidence) for the spoon being from Romania because the lion mark is not, at least not me, known to be a Romanian hallmark. Then there is the time gap. The loth mark is generally speaking not used after about 1880-1890. Promille is used expressing fineness. As I mentioned the dolphin mark is implemented 1906. Quite a gap for the MG, not impossible but still. Anyway, the crusial here is what you said "This assumpition is partly based...." So it is only an assumption, right? Nonetheless, I' just wondering and therefore asking...Romania is not actually so interesting to me, but anyway...

huszas76
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Re: Unknown European Tablespoons - P.G GC and Lion Passant

Postby huszas76 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:56 pm

Yes, it is an assumption, but the signs point in this direction.
On the other hand: We never said, that we know any romanian city marks with lion hallmark, and I'm not remember, that I ever saw this type of hallmark.
Best regards!
Krisztián

Qrt.S
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Re: Unknown European Tablespoons - P.G GC and Lion Passant

Postby Qrt.S » Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:50 am

@Krisztián
OK, your argumentation is good enough, thanks.

Theoderich
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Re: Unknown European Tablespoons - P.G GC and Lion Passant

Postby Theoderich » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:33 am

I am not very interestin in romania, but I have some marks in my page. I hope, there is a Romaina collector who will make a referencebook with all this marks.

About the MG-Mark. It is the same makersmark.
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There is a list of Romaina towns. The city of Aiud has a griffin in the coat of arms.

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