Family Crest on 1835 London Serving Dish

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neurorocker
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Family Crest on 1835 London Serving Dish

Postby neurorocker » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:28 pm

I am a complete novice at crests and could use any input whatsoever. I have high hopes that this one might be identified.

Thanks in advance!

Nate

Image
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dognose
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Re: Family Crest on 1835 London Serving Dish

Postby dognose » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:11 am

Hi Nate,

Great item! Not sure if I'm looking into this too deeply, but to me the bird and the bear crests appear to be engraved by a different hand than that of the central block (Red Hand of Ulster? above Order of the Garter?) Perhaps a later addition by a less skilled engraver?

If it is the Red Hand of Ulster, this is usually shown as a right hand, from memory, I believe there is some significance when the left hand is shown.

Trev.

neurorocker
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Re: Family Crest on 1835 London Serving Dish

Postby neurorocker » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:02 am

Thanks, Trev.

The only elements I've managed so far are (maybe):

Maltese cross
Corvus, Raven, or Rook (maybe)
Bear
Bible
A sinister hand

agphile
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Re: Family Crest on 1835 London Serving Dish

Postby agphile » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:18 am

The red hand of Ulster, sinister, in a shield is the badge for a Baronet of the United Kingdom (not just an Irish baronet). I would hazard a guess that the cross indicates some office in the Order of St John. That is the easy bit. Now all you need to do is identify a 19th century baronet who belonged to the order of St John and was entitled to both the engraved crests!

neurorocker
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Re: Family Crest on 1835 London Serving Dish

Postby neurorocker » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:58 pm

Very interesting comments and thank you for making them. The Order of St John appears to have come to Great Britain late in the 1800s, so while I don't think that is a match, I think it's the right idea. Might it be the Order of Malta? I sifted through the list of Barons that fit the time period (there are about 50 potential candidates). Two names stand out as somewhat promising but could be dead ends.

The Baron Ravensworth (1821) Thomas Liddell, 1st Baron Ravensworth: with this one you sort of get 'bear' and 'raven' in Baron Ravensworth.. So it could be a pun.

The Baron Ashburton (1835) John Baring, 7th Baron Ashburton: A known association with the bear and ascedancy to the Baronet in 1835 which matches the year of the dish.

Another possible:
Sir George Bowyer, 7th Baronet - A baron and knight of Malta.

agphile
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Re: Family Crest on 1835 London Serving Dish

Postby agphile » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:46 pm

I'm afraid the Barons don't fit. A Baronet is one rank lower, a sort of hereditary knighthood and, unlike a Baron, was not a member of the House of Lords.
And, if I can trust my edition of Fairbairn's Crests, the Bowyer crest (a falcon rising, belled) does not match.

Although the British Order of St John received its charter in 1888, its origins go back to the early 1830s so not necessarily incompatible with a hallmark for 1835. The Order of Malta is Roman Catholic; the British Order of St John is Church of England in origin. Assuming we are right about the significance of the cross, which order it represents would reflect the religion of the bearer.

Sorry tio mud the waters. I fear it would be a massive task to plough through a list of Baronets and check the family crests for each one or to work backwards from illustrations of crests to find a matching baronet. This cannot be the only example of this combined crest so I wonder whether we might hope that somebody has already done the work!

neurorocker
Posts: 174
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:58 pm

Re: Family Crest on 1835 London Serving Dish

Postby neurorocker » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:26 pm

Ok! Back to the drawing board! I'm glad I started off by saying I'm a novice! Thanks again. All very helpful information.


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