Indian Colonial mark? 'T & A J'

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dognose
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Indian Colonial mark? 'T & A J'

Postby dognose » Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:36 am

I'm guessing this is Indian Colonial. A salt spoon, 4 1/4" (11cm) in length. Old English pattern, the bowl still retains its origin gilding.

Image

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The maker, 'T & A J' is unknown to me. Any thoughts?

Trev.

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Re: Indian Colonial mark? 'T & A J'

Postby rat-tail » Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:11 pm

Hi Trev - a nice looking spoon. For what it's worth, Weltz draws a blank. Could the J not be a separate punch either punched too close or to complete a name. No nothing about crests, but that has to be one of the more unusual ones i've seen - could someone not trace an origin through that - regards Frank

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Re: Indian Colonial mark? 'T & A J'

Postby 2209patrick » Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:47 am

Hi Trev and Frank.

Not sure this is any help, but here is a similar crest on a London Epergne
from the collection of the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation here in the U.S.

Image

Pat.

dognose
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Re: Indian Colonial mark? 'T & A J'

Postby dognose » Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:22 am

Hi Frank and Pat,

Many thanks for your imput, it helps a lot.

Frank, I've looked closely at the mark and I'm sure that it is struck with just the one punch. The punch may have had a small chip taken out of it above the A and the J, thus causing an optical illusion.

Pat, The crest is indeed very similar, just in reverse. I had assumed, wrongly, that the mermaid was holding a club in one hand, and I'm not sure what in the other. Now I can see that it is indeed a mirror and a comb that she is holding. This will help a lot with a possible identification of the crest.

Regards Trev.

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Re: Indian Colonial mark? 'T & A J'

Postby Granmaa » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:29 am

Hi Trev,

I've noted that mark on an Old English pattern table spoon and a dessert spoon, both marked three times, so unlikely to be Indian Colonial I think.
There's also this italic version, stamped twice, which may be the same person.

Miles

Image

dognose
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Re: Indian Colonial mark? 'T & A J'

Postby dognose » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:09 am

Hi Miles,

Many thanks for this information. It does indeed look likely that the two marks are from the same maker.

Regards Trev.

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Re: Indian Colonial mark? 'T & A J'

Postby dognose » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:44 am

Some notes on the Mermaid crest:

The Mermaid was a badge of the Berkeleys, and Sir Walter Scott's dexter supporter. She figures, with the customary mirror and comb, in thr arms of Birmingham University as an emblem of the Mason family.

Source: Boutell's Heraldry - J.P. Brooke-Little - 1983

The Mermaid , is much more frequently met with. It is generally represented with the traditional mirror and comb in the hands. It will be found appearing, for example, in the arms of Ellis, of Glasfryn, co. Monmouth. The crest of Mason, used without authority by the founder of Mason's College, led to its inclusion in the arms of the University of Birmingham. It will also be found as the crest of Rutherford and many other families.

Source: A Complete Guide to Heraldry - A.C. Fox-Davies - 1985

There are three possibilities shown in Elven's Heraldry, those of O'Bryne, Myers, and Ellis:

Image Image Image

On the above three examples, and Pat's example the mirror and comb are held in opposite hands.

Period sources such as Elven's are always my favoured choice, although often incorrect when compared with modern works, the fact that they were considered correct at the time, is the important thing, and would have been the source, and others like it, from which period engravers would have worked from.

Trev.

Francais

Re: Indian Colonial mark? 'T & A J'

Postby Francais » Sun May 26, 2013 8:59 pm

Hi
Ok here is my try at posting images. Every site has different criteria, so it this is wrong let me know.

Image

Image

dognose
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Re: Indian Colonial mark? 'T & A J'

Postby dognose » Mon May 27, 2013 6:11 am

Hi Francais,

Welcome to the Forum.

Many thanks for posting the images. Let's hope your post will jog the memory of someone with some knowledge of the mark.

Trev.

Francais

Re: Indian Colonial mark? 'T & A J'

Postby Francais » Mon May 27, 2013 6:14 pm

Hi
Thanks,
I should mention it is a full size ladle. Also an auction sold a piece in Britain, it can be found through Google.
It was a caddy spoon with a handle which in the USA would be called coffin end, I would imagine it is called clipped corner on your side of the pond.
I think this is in the right category, as most pieces seem to be connected to Britain not USA.

Francais

Re: Indian Colonial mark? 'T & A J'

Postby Francais » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:24 pm

I am beginning to think this is a Scottish provincial mark.
On another posting someone pointed me to this site:
http://www.incorporationofgoldsmiths.org/

They list an AJ mark that looks suspiciously close to this mark. It also had a B mark with it.
Then I google searched "t&aj" and silver and found an old Bexfield site where someone asked if anyone had seen this mark (which he presumed was Scottish). Then he said to notice the "Scottish ampersand" I am not sure what a Scottish ampersand is, but I did see some similar ampersands on the Scottish site, so perhaps that means this is a Scottish mark, perhaps someone can confirm this.
I then went looking for an "TJ". Curiously there is a Thomas Johnstone in Montrose, who also had a B mark (but not the same) next to his maker's mark. He evidently worked too early for this piece, unless he lived quite a long time. However perhaps someone better with Scottish silver might want to pursue this train of thought.
Perhaps both this and the other threads might be moved to the Scottish area.
Maurice

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Re: Indian Colonial mark? 'T & A J'

Postby dognose » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:25 pm

Hi Maurice,

Thanks for your thoughts. You could well be correct.

As the item lacks a hallmark, the topic is in the correct forum, Provincial & Colonial Marks. The Scottish forum is for official hallmarking, i.e. those pieces marked by either the Edinburgh or Glasgow assay offices.

Trev.

Francais

Re: Indian Colonial mark? 'T & A J'

Postby Francais » Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:07 pm

Got it, still figuring out how to get around the site, I see your point.
Maurice

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Re: Indian Colonial mark? 'T & A J'

Postby carlislepaul » Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:56 pm

Maurice

In 2003 Richard W Turner published his book, 'A Directory of Scottish Provincial Silversmiths & Their Marks'.

In the section 'Query & Unascribed'. T&AJ T&AJ is recorded on a teaspoon circa 1790 (by style) maker unknown, possibly Scottish Provincial.

When the subsequent CD of photographs of makers marks, under the same title, was issued, this mark was not included.

Does not help you, but shows research has previously been undertaken to no avail.

Regards

Paul

Francais

Re: Indian Colonial mark? 'T & A J'

Postby Francais » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:01 pm

I guess I should mention, for what it is worth, that someone once told me it was from the islands. He gave no proof, nor would he give the names.
Maurice


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