Help with military waiter

[rat-tail]

Hi All - let me apologise in advance - I am not sure where to put list this charming silver salver, which has a motto for the Royal Artilliery, but which I don't think is English, hence the colonial category - and I found it in SA. Salver measures 25.5cm, weighs just over 400 grams and appears to be of some considerable age. Looks to be hand crafted (certainly doesn't sit perfectly flat and is not perfectly round). It is engraved with the arms for the Royal Artilliery with the battle honours Ubique with the royal crown on top, an honour bestowed by William IV in 1832, and with the motto Quo Fas et Gloria Decunt - where right and glory lead. The cannon is supposed to represent one of the guns used in the defence of Gibralta in the Napoleonic Wars. I do however feel the tray is older than 1832.

The marks? Well they're so rubbed that they are probably not readable to anyone - but this just in case anyone has seen anything similar. The black spots you see at about 8 o'clock of the salver seem to hide three marks and it was only on cleaning that these became apparent - of course they may not be marks at all but surface imperfections that have gathered a few hundred years of grime. They are quite small and certainly don't look English. The one looks like some sort of small animal from the one side, possibly a rodent or boar, maybe even an elephant, and a French style head from the other. It is in a lozenge shaped cartouche. The other I really can't make out it looks a bit like a bat in flight, but the cartouche shape resembles a diana head. The third is so tiny next to it and could be anything. On the outer rim is a squashed mark which looks like a small c or the top of a small g. Under the rim are what could be a group of three marks. The one looks like it could be a small b for London 1757 - squashed - well at least it has that cartouche shape - hard straight edges at the top and a definite point at bottom. These are more the size of British marks, but would even be regarded as small for largework of this period. The other two marks could be anything. There is what I thought might be a rubbed continental assay squiggle, but on closer examination think it an impression from the muzzle loader engraved on the front.

Any thoughts appreciated - style - possible dating - origin etc. Even if it's only to say give us more pieces of the puzzle - or get a new camera. Sorry but these were impossible to photograph.

Regards Frank




The marks on the front bottom right - the first two the same mark from two angles



and the other two - the one in the top corner undecipherable


the one on the front rim


the ones on the back - firstly the b mark



Then could this be an uncrowned leopards head


and anyone's guess - maybe a leopard's head erased?

[dognose]

Hi Frank,

Try drawing the marks that you can see, and then photograph the drawings.

Regards Trev.

[rat-tail]

Hi Trev - thanks - had a good look at the tray again in daylight today - I think the marks on the front are not marks, but imperfections that have picked up grime. And as for drawing - besides being hopeless at it - I'm not sure of what I see - changes from every angle. The three marks under the rim could be English - on cartouche shape only. I think suffice it to say old silver waiter engraved with the arms of the royal artilliery is about as far as I'm going to get on this one.

Had hoped for some fanciful history - maybe commission to celebrate a successful colonial campaign or even a trophy of war. But, despite its many imperfections, and hopelessly rubbed marks, it still looks great in the silver cabinet. It's simplicity very much my style.

Regards Frank

[silverport]

UBIQUE QUO FAS ET GLORIA DUCUNT

Hello Frank

Maybe you know already these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Royal ... _Badge.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Regi ... _Artillery" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kind regards silverport

[silverport]

Firepower - The Royal Artillery Museum, Woolwich SE London

Hello Frank

Here an addition for to get there maybe some more information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firepower_ ... ery_Museum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.firepower.org.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Research Enquiries: research@firepower.org.uk

Kind regards silverport

[rat-tail]

Hi Silverport - many thanks for the links - Frank