Picture of mark only, Scottish - PICTURE ADDED!

Britmagnet · Post by **Britmagnet** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:57 pm

Hello everyone,
I have done some research on this, and my assessment is Scottish sterling, Edinburgh, but the date mark has me puzzled. It looks very much like an old, lower case 'k', matching (as best possible from this photo) very closely the Edinburgh date mark for 1690, or possibly the upper case R of 1770, however when was the thistle introduced/discontinued? My limited knowledge is insufficient, the photo & mark aren't the best ... I'd love some assistance.

This is a simple but elegantly decorated spoon, with a semi-precious gem set in it's end, bowl nearly flat. All the decoration on this handle shows about the same amount of wear as the hallmarks. Anyone able to clarify this for me? Thanks very much in advance. Elizabeth

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georgiansilver · Post by **georgiansilver** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:30 pm

Even though the mark is somewhat worn away, there would be a head in a box (duty mark) up until the end of Victorias reign so we can say with certainty it is post Victorian. Best wishes, Mike.
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Britmagnet · Post by **Britmagnet** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:21 pm

Thanks Mike... but I'm still puzzled. I am of the understanding that the duty marks didn't come onto the scene until 1774 - the date letter very much resembles (as much as we can see of it) either the 1690 k or the 1770 R - I would think that even though part of the date mark is worn away, there should be some remnant of the duty mark - if indeed there ever was one on this piece.

Any chance I've done my homework well enough that I could indeed be right...? Not being argumentative... just trying to fully understand the marks and the system.
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Post by **dragonflywink** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:06 am

Part of the British hallmark system is the shape of the cartouches. Believe your piece is much more recent than you might think. Would be very helpful if you could post pictures of the entire piece, the style of a piece can also help determine age; besides, I'd like to see it!

Cheryl ;o)
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Neruda · Post by **Neruda** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:47 am

The thistle was introduced circa 1759, so an earlier date is out.

The date letter looks like a lower case "k" and seems closest to 1764.

Duty marks, showing the reigning king's or queen's head, were only introduced in the later 18th century and continued up to the 1880s - even so, some types of object were exempt from the tax and so don't have this mark.

P.S. I can't help thinking that a spoon with a gen set into it may be a later adition to an original 18th century piece - a photo would be useful!
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Britmagnet · Post by **Britmagnet** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:11 am

Here is a picture of the spoon. 3 1/2 inches in length.

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georgiansilver · Post by **georgiansilver** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:30 pm

The style of the spoon confirms 1930-40's. Best wishes, Mike.
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Post by **dragonflywink** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:43 pm

Very pretty Scottish thistle souvenir type spoon, I've handled similar pieces with both cairngorm and amethyst stones, some are glass. The marks appear to be Edinburgh 1965/66.

Cheryl ;o)
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Britmagnet · Post by **Britmagnet** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:44 pm

Does anyone know where would I find online examples of the more recent hallmark cartouches? The chart on this site for Edinburgh only goes up to 1930...The shape of the cartouche represented in the chart is very different for 1930 than the one on this spoon, but none are shown for after 1930. Also, how would I know if this were one of the items not requiring duty?

I have been looking around online at other spoons assayed in Edinburgh, and from those I have looked at which also contain a thistle stamp with the same shape cartouche, are dating in the 1700's - some early, some late - dating done by antique dealers and other people who appear to specialize in this sort of thing.

I am now even more confused... if I am to go by the cartouche shape, symbols contained therein, and the date letter stamp as shown in the chart (assuming they are very close approximations anyway), does the shape/style of the spoon negate all the other information that was stamped or not stamped? If so, what is the point of showing in such detail - and comparing to - all the different cartouche shapes & lettering styles used over the various years? Help!! I'm so confused!

I appreciate everyone's time in trying to help me understand... and I appreciate the education!

Elizabeth
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georgiansilver · Post by **georgiansilver** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:48 pm

The spoon is certainly a late one and the shape of the cartouche covers the period 1931-56................
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Britmagnet · Post by **Britmagnet** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:57 am

I've found a chart with the cartouche marks up to 1999 and now I feel quite silly! Yes indeed the shape is a perfect match for the most recent era. Thank you all very much for your patience, and for sharing your most impressive knowledge. There certainly is a lot to learn :)

Elizabeth
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Post by **dragonflywink** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:49 am

No reason to feel silly, you were asking questions and that 's the best way to learn!

Cheryl ;o)
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georgiansilver · Post by **georgiansilver** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:21 am

35yrs of study and I still get things wrong...I just enjoy the learning. Best wishes, Mike.
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