Help to ID maker of big 18thC Silver English Shoe Buckles

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
Atlantia
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Help to ID maker of big 18thC Silver English Shoe Buckles

Postby Atlantia » Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:00 pm

HI all,
Got this pair of buckles, and could really use some help on them as they are not really my area of collecting.
As you can see, one has lost the steel mech and has an old addition in the form of the the pin being replaced with a silver one. They are around 83mm long, so quite large.
Apart from that they are both rather nice. Any help on the hallmarks or any other info greatly appreciated.
The kings head looks like George 3 (1786 onwards mark) but was hoping someone might recognise the makers mark? Looks like 'MP' or something P anyway.
It's been suggested that the maker might be 'HP' Hampston & Prince?

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Granmaa
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Postby Granmaa » Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:38 pm

Looks like an Exeter lion. I don't know the maker, but I think I know who will...
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buckler
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Postby buckler » Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:27 am

I think I am supposed to be the one who will know the maker.
Oh dear !

First of all these are shoe buckles. The style is c1775, but the size is very much post 1780. This is borne out by the presence of the duty mark, and the marking on the bridge, rather than the back, of the frames. Doing "retro" styles wasa buckle thing, it happened a lot . Particularly in Scotland and Exeter.

I agree with Granmaa. The lion looks like Exeter, the "letterbox " lion .
The maker .
Oh dear.
Is the mark H pellet P ? or upside down (unusual on a bridge marked piece ) J pellet W ? Normally Ferris was the only man who made many buckles after 1790 .
I have very little on Exeter smiths - we need a Grimwade or Gill for Exeter - but neither initials seem to fit. Normally Ferris was the only man who made many buckles after 1790 .


Well there are those who will know, Mr G*a*a* H*d*e*, over to you !
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Atlantia
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Location: Sunny Devon

Postby Atlantia » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:28 pm

Wow, thank you both so much.
By a strange 'coincidence' these came from a lady near Exeter who said she inherited them from her grandmother.
Could you have a look at the 5th picture down, and see if you can make head or tail of the stamped mark which the silver replaced pin is going through?
Again, sincere thanks for the help.
Gene
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Atlantia
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Postby Atlantia » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:45 pm

I take it nobody has any further info on these?
Its also been suggested to me that they may be York, and that the maker might be 'HP' Hampston & Prince?
Anyone?
:(
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dognose
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Postby dognose » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:34 pm

Hi Gene,

During the partnership of Hampston and Prince only, they were known to use some seven different marks, yours is not one of them. To me the mark looks more likely to be 'J.W' as 'Buckler' suggested.

Many members are only occasional visitors, hopefully someone will read your post soon and supply some more information.

Trev.
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Atlantia
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Postby Atlantia » Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:10 pm

dognose wrote:Hi Gene,

During the partnership of Hampston and Prince only, they were known to use some seven different marks, yours is not one of them. To me the mark looks more likely to be 'J.W' as 'Buckler' suggested.

Many members are only occasional visitors, hopefully someone will read your post soon and supply some more information.

Trev.


Hi Trev,
Ah, thanks. Well that's put that theory to rest then.
So you think its upside down then?
What about the partially obscured one behind the pin?
(If you don't mind me asking)
Thanks
Gene
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buckler
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Postby buckler » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:29 am

It is just possible that the odd mark may well be another silversmiths marks that was erased when the buckles were either fnished off or retailed by the other marker. My wife is of the opinion that the mark may be that of William Pearce (Jackson p295 and 304 - where his dates are given as 1774 -1797 Plymouth )
Jacksons image does show that the final SW to NE stroke of the "W" is very thin, and this may not be visible on an old punch. Personally I disagree, but as my lunch might be jeapody.......
His mark has been seen on the image of a pair of sugar tongs, identified, almost certainly correctly as by Pearce
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Granmaa
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Postby Granmaa » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:50 am

Perhaps it could be Joseph Hick's mark upside down.
Compare to my photo below.

Miles

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dognose
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Postby dognose » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:31 am

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Granmaa
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Postby Granmaa » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:35 am

Thanks, Trev.

Here's an earlier Joseph Hicks mark upside down.

Miles

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Atlantia
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Postby Atlantia » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:53 pm

Fantastic,
Thank you all very much!
I've put another little collage together to compare the lion and king
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Atlantia
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Postby Atlantia » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:02 pm

Are you all in agreement that the lion is Exeter?
With the 'dot' that appears between the two letters on my stamp, is it more likely its a high 'full stop' between J and H or part of a worn die forming a W?
If it is J.H, can anyone tell me anything about this maker?
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Granmaa
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Postby Granmaa » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:36 pm

I'm pretty certain that the lion is from Exeter. You won't find anything out by comparing the duty heads since they were all made in London and sent out to the various assay offices.
The dot on your mark is more likely a pellet rather than die damage.
Joseph Hicks is listed in Jacksons as having registered in 1780. He died in 1835 at which time he may still have been producing silver, though I haven't seen anything marked by him this late.
He was a prolific maker, particularly of spoons and tongs.

You might find this interesting:
http://www.925-1000.com/a_exeterlions.html

Miles
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Tongtwister
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Postby Tongtwister » Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:56 am

Hi all,

Sorry I've not been looking at the site for a long time. I can't find any sign of a "J.W" or "M.P" making buckles in Exeter around this time. A possibility is a distorted "J.H" for Joseph Hicks. He was very active around this period. Trouble is I can't find any record of Hicks' having sent any buckles in for assay. Unfortunately we do not have the detailed records for the period between 1784 and 1794 so we can't be sure what he did during that period - conceivably he could have made some buckles but I'm not so sure.

Another possibility is William Pearce, see

http://www.silversugartongs.com/exeter/ ... 0MAKER.JPG

for an example of his mark that is very similar.
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Granmaa
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Postby Granmaa » Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:06 pm

That William Pearce mark does look very similar, but we can't rule Hicks out just yet.
There are mentions of him bringing in buckles to be assayed. The very first existing mention of Hicks in the assay books is 9th August 1780 when he brought in 12 teaspoons and 2 pairs of buckles. That date is too early for these buckles because of the duty mark, but it does at least show that he did make buckles.

Miles
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