Exeter Tong Maker JT?

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Granmaa
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Exeter Tong Maker JT?

Postby Granmaa » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:17 pm

A pair of bright-cut tongs probably c.1785. The lion draws me towards Exeter, but I haven't come across a JT before.

Miles

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Tongtwister
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Postby Tongtwister » Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:09 pm

Hi,

John Tincombe sent in tongs for assay at Exeter in 1781/82 and 1782/83. This date would fit with the style of the tongs. He did not make very many & his work is therefore rare (24 pairs in 1781/82 and 66 in 1782/83). I can't think of anyone else it could be. John Tincombe is the only one I know of with those initials. There were no other Exeter makers of this period with those initials.

Well done - a lovely rare pair of early Exeter tongs.
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Postby Granmaa » Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:55 pm

Thank you very much.
It's nice to be able to date early tongs, from any assay office, so precisely.
I'd like to find another pair for comparison. These are probably the flimsiest pair I have come across.

Miles
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Postby MCB » Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:57 pm

Hello Miles,
Jackson's publication suggests Tincombe (they spell it Tingcombe) was active from 1763-83 and died 1788. He worked in Plymouth.
Regards,
Mike
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Postby Granmaa » Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:42 pm

Thankyou, Mike. I'm on the lookout for another pair, but with only 90 pairs ever made, it may take a while!

Miles
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Postby Granmaa » Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:26 pm

Just in case there was any doubt that this lion was from Exeter, here's another one with Joseph Hicks' early mark.

Miles

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Tongs of JT (John Tingcombe)

Postby sap81uk » Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:34 pm

Having came across this name in my research (in Genealogy) I can tell you there are two Tingcombe's I know that are either Goldsmith's or Silversmiths in Devon in the 1700's.

One is John Tingcombe, and another is his brother Jonathan Tingcombe. I have the will of John Tingcombe (dated 1787), his occupation is banker in 1787, he was involved with Sir William Elford (Mayor of Plymouth) and others in Plymouth Bank. The bank closed in 1825 in the banking crisis of that year.

His son (also John Tingcombe) took his place in 1803 (The year of his marriage to Sarah Arscott Lethbridge). Jonathan Tingcombe is mentioned in the elder John Tingcombe's will as goldsmith of Plymouth.

As above, we can be sure Jonathan was in this field, was John himself also in this field? I do not want to assume just because I found a John Tingcombe/Tincombe that it is definitely the banker John Tingcombe.

Plymouth Bank was setup in the early 1770's, and Tingcombe was involved and stayed a partner until he gave over to his son (from either retirement or death). It is very possible John started out like his brother as a silver/goldsmith and then went into banking.

What does everyone think of this? There is mention of John Tingcombe being a silversmith AND a goldsmith in some sources.

Steve
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Postby Granmaa » Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:31 am

John Tincombe the goldsmith of Plymouth also left a will which survives. It was proved 1794 and mentions two sons: William and George, and three grandsons none of whom is called John or Jonathan
There is a water lease record granting Jonathan Tingcombe silversmith of Plymouth and dated 1799.
How or if these two were related I don't know.

I suppose John and Johnathan are being used interchangeably.
Let us know if you make any breakthroughs.

Miles
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Postby dognose » Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:53 am

Obitury taken from 'The Gentleman's Magazine' - 1846, regarding John Tingcombe, the inheritor of the banking business.


July 8th in his 81st year, John Tingcombe, Esq., of Greenwich. Descended from one of the Two Thousand ministers (there were indeed three of that name among them, then written Tincombe), who, in the year 1662, made such a noble sacrifice of interest to principle, he inherited, and through his long life zealously adhered to, the profession and practice of Nonconformity. He was devout, pious, a firm Unitarian and decided advocate of civil and religious liberty. He was one of the few surviving pupils of Dr. Estlin, of Bristol, so well known formerly in the West of England. In his early life, he succeeded his father as a partner in the bankinghouse of Sir W. Elford and Co. at Plymouth, which was one of the first firms that succumbed in the disastrous year of 1825. Deprived by this event of his property, he never resumed business, but lived with a dear sister who was attached to the same cause, and who attained to almost the same age as he did. His three daughters were with him when he died, to whom he said, "We shall meet again in the kingdom of heaven." W. W.


The listing of bankruptcies in the 'London Gazette' in 1825, list the bank's directors as: Sir William Elford. Bart., J. Tincomb and J.W. Clarke.


From the 'History of Plymouth: from the earliest period to the present time' By Richard Nicholls Worth - 1890:
The first Plymouth Bank was established in 1772, by Barings, Lee, Sellon, and Tingcombe; the second, the Naval Bank, in 1773, by Harris, Turner, and Herbert. The former, the Plymouth Bank (then Elford, Tingcombe, and Clark), stopped payment in 1825, which caused widespread suffering.


Details of Sir William Elford, taken from 'The Dictionary of National Biography', Volume 6 - 1908.

ELFORD, Sir WILLIAM (1749-1837), banker, politician, and amateur artist, of Bickham, Buckland Monachorun), Devonshire, born in August 1749, was the elder son of the Rev. Lancelot Elford of Bickham, and Grace, daughter of Alexander Wills of Kingsbridge, Devonshire. His family was one of the oldest in the west of England. He was a partner in the banking firm at Plymouth of Elford. Tingcombe, & Clerk, and was connected in many capacities with the same town. He was mayor of Plymouth in 1797, and recorder from 1798 to February 1833. In politics a tory, he was M.P. for Plymouth from 1796 to 1806, when he was defeated, and brought an unsuccessful petition against his antagonist, Sir C. M. Pole, bart. In July 1807 he was elected M.P. for Rye. but resigned his seat in July 1808. He was lieutenant-colonel of the South Devon militia, and in that capacity accompanied his regiment to Ireland during the Irish rebellion, 1798-9. On 29 Nov. 1800 he was created a baronet. He lived the latter part of his life at the Priory, Totnes, and was recorder of that borough for some years. He died at that place on 30 Nov. 1837, aged 89, and was buried in the parish church, where there is a tablet to his memory. Elford was a friend of William Pitt the younger; frequently visited Bath, where he was noted as a whist-player; was acquainted with many of the leading literary characters and artists of his day; possessed considerable scientific attainments, and in 1790 was elected fellow of the Royal Society and the Linnean Society. A few years before his death he published the results of his investigations as to a substitute for common yeast, and his discoveries excited some attention. Elford was also an artist of great excellence; he was a constant contributor to the Royal Academy exhibitions from 1774 to 1837, and his pictures were marked by great taste and good draughtsmanship. The last exhibited by him was painted in his eighty-ninth year. There are two watercolour sketches by him in the print room at the British Museum. His most important picture was' The White Lady of Avenel,' exhibited in 1823, and now in the possession of his grandson, Colonel Henry Cranstoun Adams of Lion House, Exmouth, and Crapstone, Buckland Monachomm. There is a landscape by Elford at Windsor Castle, which he presented to the prince regent in 1819, and he also presented pictures painted by himself to the university of Oxford and to many of his friends. Elford was twice married; his first wife was Mary, daughter and heiress of the Rev. John Davies of Plympton, who died in 1817, leaving one son, Jonathan Elford. who was M. P. for Westbury for a few months in 1820, married and died in 1823 without issue, and two daughters, Grace Chard, died unmarried 24 Feb. 1856, and Elizabeth, who became the wife of General Sir George Pownoll Adams, K.C.H.; his second wife was Elizabeth, daughter of Humphrey Hall of Manadon, and widow of Lieutenant-colonel Walrond. At Elford's death the baronetcy became extinct. James Northcote, R.A., was an intimate friend of the Elford family, and painted numerous portraits of them, most of which, with others, belong to his grandson, Colonel H.C. Adams, at Exmouth.


From 'The Naval chronicle', Volume 1 - 1799, an undated snippet in the 'Marriages' section:
At Plymouth, Mr. Welsford, purser of his Majesty's ship Pompee, to Miss Tingcombe, eldest daughter of Mr. J. T. goldsmith, of that place.

Trev.
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Postby Granmaa » Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:38 am

A slightlymore detailed version of that marriage announcement from the Exeter Flying Post 17th January 1799.

Lately was married, at Plymouth, Mr Welsford, purser of his Majesty’s Ship Popee, of 84 guns, to Miss Tingcombe, eldest daughter of Mr. J. Tingcombe, an eminent goldsmith of that place.

As it doesn't say "late goldsmith" it is more likely that this refers to the later Jonathan Tingcombe of the water lease.

Miles
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Tingcombe

Postby sap81uk » Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:02 pm

Thankyou all for the replies, they are very welcome and very appreciated!

Here are my thoughts and comments on what was posted. I have two wills of John Tingcombe dated 1787 and 1800's. There were three John Tingcombe's in the 1700's and 1800's (That I currently know of). The Tingcombe family were either ministers/reverends or bankers/silver/goldsmiths.

There is a John Tingcombe who was the son of Jonathan Tingcombe (brother of John Tingcombe Snr) who was a reverend. He died in the 1840's. I have a link to his obituary and other details about him. He was born in early 1770's and the other banking Tingcombe son was John Tingcombe born in the early 1780's. The two are different and were of different parentages.

Jonathan and John had a number of children in the latter part of the 1700's, the Greenwich Tingcombe that is mentioned is John Tingcombe Snr's son John Tingcombe born in 1782 in Plymouth. In 1803 he took over from his father and died in 1862 in Plymouth. He is shown in Pigots directory Greenwich in 1840 and in the 1851 and 1861 census as living in Greenwich. In one of those he is living with his sister. He married in 1803 to Sarah Arscott Lethbridge, of the prestigious Lethbridge family (highly connected).

John Tingcombe Snr's will dated 1787 mentions his brother Jonathan Tingcombe, wife Elizabeth, son John, and his daughters.

It is of course possible that John Tingcombe was a silversmith and his brother was a goldsmith.

I would welcome your thoughts.

Steve
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Postby admin » Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:51 pm

At this time, the terms goldsmith and silversmith were largely interchangeable, the skill sets and tools being one and the same.
Banking and silversmithing/goldsmithing were also closely connected, as the original 17th century forebears of modern banking were the goldsmiths.
http://www.google.com/search?q=banker+g ... CCcQ5wIwCg

The combined trade of goldsmith/banker saw its demise in the 18th century, but isolated instances survived as late as the early 19th century.
viewtopic.php?t=5458

Regards, Tom
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