Pair of Sugar Tongs - FP over BG

[buckler]

My wife has recently bought a pair of late Georgian sugar tongs.



The maker mark is a mystery being FP over BG. Tongs are post duty and my guess is around 1800 and the Lion Passant appears Guardant, and probably provincial. My wife's only suspect is Francis Parsons of Exeter, with an unrecorded partner. He was in parnership with Joseph Goss - could B G be a relative or Mr Goss's widow ?


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[Granmaa]

Hi Buckler,

Here is a spoon made by the same partnership which I posted a couple of years ago: http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... light=goss

As you can see, we didn't manage to solve it. Exeter and West Country Silver by Exeter museum is not very helpful, but it does say that Joseph Goss either stopped working or died in 1815, so if your theory is correct then the tongs were made between that date and 1820/21 when this duty head was changed.

If no-one else posts the answer, I'll chase up Exeter records office.

Miles
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[buckler]

Many thanks Granmaa
Sounds as if my wife was on the right lines- I think we certainly cannot rule out the widow of Mr Goss
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[dognose]

Hi Clive and Miles,

I have a suspicion that it is not Francis Parsons, I could well be wrong, but if it is him, then he had a most curious history of partnerships.
As I understand it, FP was known to have been working from 1797-1831. Spoons with an ‘FP’ only mark have been attributed to him 1800-04, ‘FP over JG’ in 1804/5, ‘FP over BG’ in 1806-07 and ‘FP over SC’ 1797-1807 also ‘JG over FP’ 1811-13.
Shown below are two spoons which have the ‘FP over BG’ which I believe could be earlier than the earliest known working date for Parsons.



This style, Old English with shoulders, was popular in London circa 1770, and one would expect a natural delay for fashion to reach the provinces of maybe 15-20 years at the most, certainly they are post 1786 because of the Duty mark, but unlikely to be post 1797, the earliest date for Parsons.
Shown below are two slightly different spoons with the ‘JG over FP’ mark they are Hallmarked very similar to each other, and show the date of 1813 and are showing a full set of marks, less the Town Mark, at this date.



These might reflect a change of fortune for Parsons as he now appears to be the junior partner to Joseph Goss.
Which ever way one looks at it, it would appear that he had at least two separate partnerships running at the same time, with Joseph Goss and Stephen Crees.
So maybe there was an unknown ‘FP-BG’ partnership that ran c.1785-1807. If this was the case I can find no entries to back this up, but if correct it would make your tongs somewhat earlier than at first thought, maybe.
Of course another possibility is that ‘FP-BG’ were the fathers of ‘JG-FP’ with the sons taking over the business in c.1807, but that is just speculation on my part.
Another clue may be that of the Lion Passant. There appears to be three distinct varieties used during the earlier part of this period on smaller items.



I have yet to try and work out the sequence that they were used in.

Regards Trev.

[buckler]

Many thanks Trev.

As the tongs are "desperately plain" I agree the period could be anytime after 1786 . The George Head is totally uncusped which also supports an early date in the duty period. But from experience I have found that although punches cannot be used before their period, they were often used after they were supposedly all retired and destroyed! A search for Gosses in the PRO probate records reveal no-one relevent - but the incident of the name Goss in the period for Devon and Cornwall is very high - higher than anywhere else including London
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[Tongtwister]

Hi all,

I've been away for a few days so have missed this little exchange. The "untangling" of the range of Exeter punches around this time is a problem, but from my own collection of tongs, I tend to go for this particular combination of oval Lion & oval duty mark as around 1806 - that sort of fits with dognose's suggestions for dates. I would also go with around that date from the style of the tongs - I have seen many Exeter tongs, very similar, around the same date.

Grimwade (page 255) has a foot-note about Francis Parsons & members of the Goss family, with an image of "FP BG" No 3574. He acknowledges Tim Kent as supplying the info. Tim, as we know, is the font of all knowledge relating to Exeter, so I would always tend to heed his suggestions.

As far as sugar tongs go, I have seen "FP", "FP over JG", "JG over FP" and "FP over SC". I have heard of "FP over BG" but not actually seen any until now.

I have been in touch with Exeter folks recently & sadly there are huge gaps in the records. They were unable to dig up anything on any of the Goss family when I asked.

I do think Dognose's suggestion of 1806/07 is right & I also suspect a "B.... Goss" - possibly Benjamin - working before Joseph. I do hope this exchange runs & runs as it would be great to hear from someone who can definitely identify the mysterious "B".
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[buckler]

Thanks Graham. Apparently Sue checked the unregistered marks of Grimwade, saw FP/DG ,failed to check the reference, so missed out on the fact that it was actually FP/BG. At least it confirms everyones view of it being Exeter
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[dognose]

Hi,

Just another small, but maybe important part of the jig-saw.
This is a teaspoon by the Plymouth silversmith Jason Holt.



Jackson has the last mention of Holt as 1784, but as you can see from the Duty Mark it would appear he was working for a little while longer than this date. If presuming Jackson is just a couple of years off on the dating, then the ‘letterbox’ Lion Passant is likely to be the earliest of the three previously shown, pushing the oval version, which I suspect to be the next used, closer to the 1800 period.
Sorry about the picture quality, my camera appears to be playing up.

Regards Trev.
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[buckler]

I would agree with Trev that the "letterbox" lion is normally an earlier Exeter sterling mark but would suggest that the oval one did not immediately replace it -I think the two may well have run together for some time.
The whole matter of punch shapes is fraught. In the mid to late eighteen century, faced with increasing demand for assays London ordered them in great quantities - several of each of each size . As a consequence at one time there would be all the new punches, plus several of the surving old ones in use until they were too worn . We can often pinpoint the earliest use of a new shape, but rarely its last efforts. I suspect incidentally that the old 1740 -1756 Lion Passant Guardants punches for London may have been sold, perhaps slightly refurbished , to Newcastle -certainly Newcastle was using a very similar punch later than 1756.
A problem is that Goldsmiths Hall are I think, rather reluctant to disclose some details, as it would aid the forgers !
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[Tongtwister]

Hi all (again),

Would just like to add some controversy to this one. I have recently been doing some study of these early Exeter marks. I would agree with Buckler's general comment that Exeter could well have been using a variety of Lion Passants, all at the same time, but I have been trying to pin it down a bit better. In very rough terms, I'd suggest dognose's combination of oval duty mark & "letter-box" Lion Passant date from roughly 1790 to 1797. We can by no means be certain - and I am absolutely not claiming this to be definitive - but its my best guess from observation so far. The other dfficulty is the script "IH" attributed to Jason Holt. In fact "Exeter & West Country Silver" attributes a script "IH" mark to Joseph Hicks. If correct then that would therefore allow work to be dated much later than 1784. I personally think that they both had a fairly similar script "IH" maker's mark and I have written a paper with my thoughts on this very subject & hope to publish it very soon so would love to hear from anyone with any good, sound evidence on the subject.
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[buckler]

To introduce a new , horrible , possibility.
When a silversmith dies, if he has no partner or silversmith heir, his wife either carries on his business - often with a new mark, or sells everything off. Probably to a younger silversmith in the same area. Said younger silversmith would get a load of stuff, tools etc - and perhaps punches. among the junk. Those of us who have cleared deceased relatives effects will recognise the symptons
Normally he would throw the punches away - but if they were his initials.......?
Clive .
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[dognose]

Hi,

I doubt he would would have thrown anything away, everything would have had a use, even it it had to be adapted for that use.

I came across another set of marks that backs Graham's theory that the script JH is that of Joseph Hicks rather than Jason Holt.



This set is 1792, surely too old for Jason Holt, also note the Date letter variant and the broken Town mark punch.

Clive was right when he stated that punches were often used after they were supposedly retired and destroyed. Here is another set of marks, this time from 1796, and guess what, they are still using that same broken Town mark punch.



The maker this time is Moses Mordecai, again note the Date letter variant.

Regards Trev.