Is this Dutch?

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
legrandmogol
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Is this Dutch?

Postby legrandmogol » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:30 pm

Just wondering about this spoon, I have never seen an original 16/17th century version or a later copy with a stem like this. It looks like it has some honest polishing wear but maybe not enough for over 300 years. I lean towards Dutch origin but basically as a hunch for more than any other reason.

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oel
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Re: Is this Dutch?

Postby oel » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:25 pm

Hi, apostle spoon with the apostle Judas Thaddeus with club. You wrote never seen an original 16/17th century version
Herewith
https://www.oks.nl/collection-detail/720no-04051
https://www.oks.nl/collection-detail/5963no-03758
https://www.oks.nl/collection-detail/716no-03985
https://www.oks.nl/collection-detail/3884no-03992
https://www.oks.nl/collection-detail/717no-03996
https://www.oks.nl/collection-detail/638oks-1982-072
The apostle spoon could be Dutch, will browse my files, will take some time.

Best,

Peter

legrandmogol
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Re: Is this Dutch?

Postby legrandmogol » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:54 pm

Hi, Peter I was hoping you would reply! Thank you so much for the information. I eagerly await your verdict. Also I tried to buy that book on commemorative spoons but it looks like the museum does not have an online store.

oel
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Re: Is this Dutch?

Postby oel » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:42 am

Hi,
So far no luck with this particular mark: H or JH conjoined. It is not Frisian. I have ordered the book for you, see my pm.

Peter

legrandmogol
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Re: Is this Dutch?

Postby legrandmogol » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:45 am

I could be wrong but the second spoon picture you sent me, item number 03758, St. Andrew spoon looks like a good match. The handle is made almost exactly in the same style and the mark looks very similar as well though I can't see its mark up close. The museum lists it as an Unknown Friesland maker.

oel
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Re: Is this Dutch?

Postby oel » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:44 am

Yes, let me rephrase not a known Frisian maker's mark. Indeed there are Frisian maker's marks with a different type of H unidentified.
Your spoon handle; this type of decorated spoon stem/handle is called in Dutch doorntaksteel which translates into thorn branch stem/handle.

Peter.



Gratitude Jan Schipper www.zilverstudie.nl

legrandmogol
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Re: Is this Dutch?

Postby legrandmogol » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:53 am

ahh, until I saw the pictures you sent me I had never seen anything like that before so I (and the original seller) had presumed it was a later 19th-century piece in a fantasy 17th-century style. I guess it could still be a fantasy piece though. I have Voet's "Merken van Friese goud- en zilversmeden" and I couldn't find this mark in the book either.

oel
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Re: Is this Dutch?

Postby oel » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:49 pm

The book Merken van Friese goud- en zilversmeden is dated.
Today's authority on Frisian silversmiths is Mr. Jan Schipper of http://www.zilverstudie.nl
Jan Schipper does extending research on Frisian silver, the (hall) marks & silversmiths with outstanding results and new findings. Unfortunately for us the site is for selected members only.
I have discussed your spoon with Mr. Jan Schipper and he wrote me the maker's mark is unknown to him.

Indeed your spoon could be early 18th century, looking at the images. You have the spoon in hand and are the best to judge.

Peter.

legrandmogol
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Re: Is this Dutch?

Postby legrandmogol » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:02 pm

I am definitely not experienced enough to be 100% sure of a pieces date but I am confident that the mark and construction and style of the spoon match the spoon in Fries museum you showed me. Do we know how the museum confirmed the age beyond the inscription? Also Mr. Schipper should write a book as an update to Mr Voets. I eagerly await his book

oel
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Re: Is this Dutch?

Postby oel » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:20 am

Most likely provenance, wills & testaments, 17th century inventory letter/book after death describing the spoon. Indeed updates are important and patience is a virtue.


Best,

Peter

legrandmogol
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Re: Is this Dutch?

Postby legrandmogol » Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:57 pm

My problem is that I want them to be 17th century but that can be dangerous when trying to accurately date something. I try to look at everything as a pessimist until there is solid evidence to the contrary despite my wants. Sadly none of the pieces I buy ever have any known provenance, if they did I wouldn't be able to afford them lol.
I have a couple more spoons with questions on them that could also be Dutch but I'll give you a breather before I bother you again. Thank you for all your help so far, your knowledge is invaluable to me.


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