Maker of this big spoon from Sneek?

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Maker of this big spoon from Sneek?

Postby zilverik » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:17 pm

Hi,

This is a big spoon (breilepel) from Sneek, Friesland. Weight: 226 gr.; lenght: 38,9 cm; wide: 8,3 cm.
I wasn't able to find the master. Maybe somebody can?

Regards,

Zilverik

Image

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Re: Maker of this big spoon from Sneek?

Postby oel » Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:35 pm

Hello Zilverik,

Up front, I do not believe the spoon to be made in Sneek and the first mark is not the Guild city mark of Sneek; being three crowns and not three sausages or three V shapes;

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I can not see a date letter resembling any date letter used in Sneek;
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The hatchet; Duty mark for old silver objects of national origin returned to the trade. In accordance with several resolutions with further clarifications, this mark was intended for objects with the hallmarks of the ancient Netherlands silversmiths’ companies ….The use of this mark was abolished in 1927 for two reasons:1st . The lack of knowledge of the old marks has caused this mark to be sometimes struck on old foreign objects. 2nd. this mark had often been counterfeited and used to give objects an antique aura. The difference with the older French ‘hatchet’ mark: The French mark was struck tax free on objects with valid hallmarks. However I fail to see any old & valid marks at your spoon and the handle of the hatchet is to short compared to the French hatchet and also looks odd compared to the official Dutch hatchet;
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Judging by the images you provided; the spoon overall looks fresh and ‘new’ but the first three marks look rubbed. Please do remember this is my personal opinion based upon the images and I am open for suggestions or different opinion; to understand and learn.

Regards,

Oel
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Re: Maker of this big spoon from Sneek?

Postby zilverik » Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:02 am

Hi Oel,

I can image that the spoon looks new to you with the pictures I took. I made some new pictures. Indeed, it could be something else than Sneek. Maybe that's the reason I looked in the wrong direction. Maybe it's not even Dutch. I can usure you that the spoon isn't new. The Gabriel engraving at the end on the backside of the spoon looks very early to me.

Regards,

Zilverik


Image

Image

Image
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Re: Maker of this big spoon from Sneek?

Postby oel » Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:31 am

Morning Zilverik,

I can see clearly now. Good spoon and a real beautiful engraving and appears to be old but not made in Sneek, could it be old German, northern region?

Oel
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Re: Maker of this big spoon from Sneek?

Postby zilverik » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:26 am

Hi Oel,

You are right, it's not Sneek. I looked for the mark (the 3 sausages) in Rosenberg ("Himmelkörper","Heroldstücke") and Tardy. I could't find it there. The bulls head I couldn't find either. So, no lead at all accept for the form of the spoon, the Christian engraving and the form of the marks. Not Asian for sure. Not Dutch, German, French, English. Probably another West European country. Or maybe North America? What do you think? What country could it be?

Regards,

Zilverik
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Re: Maker of this big spoon from Sneek?

Postby zilverik » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:43 am

Hi,

Could the bullshead be the mark of the city Norden in the time that the Netherlands (and a part of Germany) where a kingdom of France (1810-1814)?

Regards,

Zilverik
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Re: Maker of this big spoon from Sneek?

Postby oel » Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:17 am

Difficult but I got drawn towards München or Munich because of the last mark (right) city mark Munich 17th century malformed.
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Marc Rosenberg for München mentions FO for; Frans Oxner 1647-1688, who became in 1664 supplier to royal court and perhaps allowed to bear a crown above the initials FO
However I am way out of my league with to many may bee’s
The bullhead city of Norden looks slimmer around the nose not like a hypo


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Re: Maker of this big spoon from Sneek?

Postby zilverik » Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:20 pm

Hi Oel,

The form of the spoon is not mid 17e century. Probably 18e century but not much older.
This Munchen master is for me to early. Did he made this sort of flatware?

Regards,

Zilverik
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Re: Maker of this big spoon from Sneek?

Postby oel » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:13 pm

I believe I have seen large basting spoons and plain puritan spoons dated around 1650 but I am not into spoons. Would it not be better you re-list your spoon perhaps under ‘other countries’

Oel
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Re: Maker of this big spoon from Sneek?

Postby zilverik » Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:13 am

Hi Oel,

Yes, but not immediately. I am not in a hurry. Our communication is interesting for others as well I think. We lose that conversation if I relist. Is it not?

Regards,

Zilverik
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Re: Maker of this big spoon from Sneek?

Postby oel » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:20 pm

Hi Zilverik,

No, not if you give it another heading like; ….. with unknown marks. The point is not to be bias and let others start with a fresh look without directions.
We agree it is not the Sneek city guild mark; the three sausages could be ‘animal legs’ but then the shape of the shield looks like a bullet.
The ‘bullhead’ not for the city of Norden;
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Anyway it is up to you and please take your time and I will continue to look around for possibilities.

Oel
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Re: Maker of this big spoon from Sneek?

Postby oel » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:28 am

Hi Zilverik,

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I am thinking perhaps it could be for the city of Eindhoven; 3 horns. Eindhoven never had an official silver guild and some silversmiths of Eindhoven were known to apply their own version of the city mark and if so the crowned FO could be a maker’s mark. City silver of Eindhoven is hard to find and the little I have seen came with maker’s mark, without date letter and an unknown figure mark hence the Bull head. However we could do with some more research.

Oel

Eindhoven city guild mark crowned and uncrowned

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Eindhoven from top to bottom; flowery V = duty mark, the unknown pictorial mark, Eindhoven city mark; three horns under crown, makers mark a star under crown (could be for Andreas van der Hoek), crowned O (upside down) =duty mark.

Image
Eindhoven from top to bottom; maker’s mark P.R could be for Paulus Reese, unknown figure mark, Eindhoven city mark; three horns.


Gratitude; Stadszilver.nl
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Re: Maker of this big spoon from Sneek?

Postby zilverik » Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:12 am

Hi Oel,

After being away for quite a time (Asia, Africa) I opened my posts and I am very glad with this finding. Thank you!

Regards,

Zilverik
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Re: Einhoven city mark F. van Osch

Postby oel » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:54 pm

Hi Zilverik,

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It took some time but the maker’s mark FO crowned could be for; F. van Osch, hence the Ox head and F. van Osch used a city mark of Eindhoven being three post horns.

In 1807 during the Kingdom of Holland, F. van Osch, 51 years old, registered a new maker’s mark; F. van OSCH in a rectangle with a separate city mark of Eindhoven (3 post horns).
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Ref: W. Koonings, De Keuring van goud en zilver tijdens het Koninkrijk Holland 1807-1812

Best,

Oel.
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