Need help with AJD maker's mark

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the2pats
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Need help with AJD maker's mark

Postby the2pats » Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:08 pm

Hi:

I have done as much research as I can on the spoons that I have. I am left with questions about them and hope someone here can help.

I have eight soup spoons (8 inches long) that I have determined to be Dutch Silver. My conclusion is because the hallmark (as shown in the attached photo includes: 1) Maker mark 2) Silver purity mark 3) Duty Mark and 4) Date Mark. This lines up perfectly with the Dutch Hallmark format (1814-present) found on your site.

In my case, the hallmarks are: The Maker's mark which appears to be 'AJD' with additional marks; The Lion Passant with arabic 2 which I understand to mean that the pieces (if authentic) were made prior to 1953 and are .833 silver content; the duty mark clearly shows a 'B' which I understand to indicate the Assay Office of Utrecht; and a date letter of 'A.'

My main question is to confirm or establish the maker and secondarily to establish the date. I found on your forum a question about a maker's mark of 'AJD' which was answered with the statement that the maker was Anthonie & Jacob Johannes Dreisen and that the piece was assayed in Schoonhoven and the date was determined to be 1883.

Although the maker's mark that was shown was similar to mine, they are not the same. In addition, the duty mark in my case is 'B' for Utrecht rather than 'M', so I thought this was not the maker. Further, my Date Letter is 'A' which I take to be either 1910 or 1935 and the answer stated that this mark was canceled in 1910. All of this made me think this was not the same mark as was found in the previous question.

I now have found that there was a maker called either "fa. A.J. Driessen,Utrecht,1919-1943" or "Fa. A.J. Driesen, Utrecht" on different auction sites. I think that though the spellings are different, this must be the same maker and assume that the correct spelling is Driesen (single 's' rather than double 's') but want to be sure. I think that both spellings refer to the same maker even though I cannot find a clear copy of the maker's mark. Does anyone agree that this is the maker? If not, can you suggest another maker that fits the other marks?

If fa. A.J. Driesen is the maker, I think the date must be 1935 and not 1910. Is that correct?

I am curious of the meaning of the 'fa.' and whether this maker is associated with the mark of Anthonie & Jacob Johannes Dreisen? Also, is the 'fa' indicated or present in my maker's mark?

Please note that the maker's mark appears to be rotated 90 degrees to the left in the hallmark.

Thank you very much for your interest and assistance.

Image
Image

oel
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Re: Need help with AJD maker's mark

Postby oel » Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:13 am

Hi,

Welcome to the forum.

Your photo’s are not very clear but your maker’s mark reads; A.J above *D* for; B.H. Driesen ( Fa. A.J. Driesen) with registered outlets in the cities of Schoonhoven and Utrecht. Date registered 1923/1943
During 1919/1923 this firm used a maker’s mark; AJ above +D+
Fa. is short for Firma or Firm/Company/Corporate name.
The regional assay office indication letter could be B for Utrecht.
Date letter A for the year 1935

Regards,

Oel

the2pats
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Re: Need help with AJD maker's mark

Postby the2pats » Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:25 pm

Thank you, Oel. I appreciate your help. I agree that the marks are not easy to see so I have cropped the picture so that the marks are more clear. I can see the *s on either side of the 'D' and wonder if the marks above and between the 'A' and 'J' are significant?

Best from Berkeley, California.


Image

oel
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Re: Need help with AJD maker's mark

Postby oel » Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:03 pm

Hi,

You are welcome, the mark between the A and J is a dot. Your last photo confirms.
Next week I will be able to show you a copy of the maker’s mark.

Best from Holland

Oel

oel
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Re: Need help with AJD maker's mark

Postby oel » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:36 pm

Hi the2Pads,

Herewith as promised the mark of Fa. A.J. Driesen;
Image

Regards,

Oel

the2pats
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Re: Need help with AJD maker's mark

Postby the2pats » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:51 pm

Hello again, Oel:

Thank you for this new post. I have cropped my photo again better to show the maker's mark. This looks very much like the image in your post. I really appreciate your taking the time to share this information with me.

Image

oel
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Re: Need help with AJD maker's mark

Postby oel » Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:30 pm

You are welcome. It is the correct maker’s mark and this definitely fits perfectly with the timeframe, being 1935.

Regards,

Oel

Lya
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Re: Need help with AJD maker's mark

Postby Lya » Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:04 am

Hello, I just came upon this site by accident and saw this old inquiry about the A.J.D. halmark.
This happens to be the hallmark of my grandfather.
My father, grand father and great grandfather were all silversmiths.
It's a pity I can't send a photo of the various hallmarks in this answer.
My great grandfather lived in Schoonhoven, the silver city of the Netherlands.
My grandfather and father lived in Utrecht, where I was born too.
My grandfather had several hall marks.
AJD in a box and A.J.D. in a box. 1919-1943
And the hallmark showing in your request, A J with the .D. Underneath 1919- 1943
Also the hallmark A.J. With underneath *D* 1919-1943

My father's hallmark was A J with the *Dr* underneath 1943-1956
Also A*J* Dr. 1943-1956

It's fascinating to me to see that our families flatware ended up all over the world. I have migrated to Australia, taking some of my families history with me.

Regards lya

oel
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Re: Need help with AJD maker's mark

Postby oel » Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:27 am

Hi Lya, welcome to the forum and thanks for your reply and information about your family.
Please show us the photos of the various maker’s marks used by your silversmith family. We would love to see the marks.

The book Book; Zilversmeden van de stad Schoonhoven, biografie der werkmeesters van 1812-1900 mentioned;
Anthonie en Jacob Johannes Driesen address; Lopikerstraat 61, they made small silver spoons and small forks, did not work with gold. Started 21-2-1870- died 12-1-1910
In 1884 they took over the shop of their deceased father Jacobus Johannes Driesen. We assume there has been a working relationship with G. Kuilenburg because he engraved their silver work and bought their spoons.

The various makers’ marks of Anthonie & Jacobus Johannes Driesen registered and dates used. Later registered Fa. A.J. Driesen in Schoonhoven /Utrecht and A.J. Driesen registered in Utrecht/Bunnik/Venraij:
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The book Book; Zilversmeden van de stad Schoonhoven , biografie der werkmeesters van 1812-1900 mentioned:
Jacobus Johannes Driesen, made gold wire and smooth silver without decoration (gladwerk). Started work 31-3-1856 and died 31-3-1884. Jacobus worked as apprentice (knecht) under silversmith van den Bergh in the city of Dordrecht. Jacobus also worked with gold and made bottle caps for parfum bottles (gouden flacondoppen). After he died his two sons took over his shop.
The various makers’ marks registered and date used by Jacobus Johannes Driesen
Image
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Image
http://collectie2008.boijmans.nl/en/wor ... %28KN&V%29


Best wishes,

Peter

Gratitude; Netherlands'Responsibility marks from 1797 WaarborgHolland/ Zilversmeden van de stad Schoonhoven (Begeer)

Renekappers
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Re: Need help with AJD maker's mark

Postby Renekappers » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:24 am

Hi Lya and Oel,
I am so sorry to inform you that 'Zilversmeden van de stad Schoonhoven' is incorrect regarding the Driesen-family in Schoonhoven before 1910. Instead it reads as follows.

Jacobus Johannes (nr 051)was not the father of Anthonie & Jacob Johannes (nr.049).
Jacobus Johannes (1835-1901) and Anthonie Johannes (1845-1909) were brothers, sons of Hendricus Driesen (Hainaut 1790-1860) and Christina Johanna van Halteren.
Jacobus Johannes continued his work as a goldsmith in 1884 in company with his brother Anthonie Johannes (nr. 049). After their death the company was continued by Balduinus Hendricus Driesen (1875- 'sHertogenbosch 1953) the son of Anthonie Johannes.

Jacobus Johannes Driesen used 3 mrt 1856 JD120 in liggend zeskant; after that (13 feb 1863) D120 in liggend zeskant; after that (20 feb 1880) D12 in liggend zeskant; destroyed 31 jan 1884.

Anthonie Johannes Driesen used (21 feb 1870) AJ over dot D dot in a square, which makers mark was also used for the company after 1884 untill 12 jan 1910 when BHD took over; after that BHD used AJ over x D x in a square and AJDx in a rectangle.

Hendricus Theodorus Driesen (1867-Oss 1948) son of Jacobus Johannes started as silversmith 13 juli 1892, using H.T.D. in liggend zeskant. Discontinued 14 apr 1893 (nr. 050)

Anthonie Johannes Driesen was chairman of the 'Nijverheidsvereeniging van goud- en zilversmeden in Schoonhoven' between 1904-1909.
He lived since 1870 Lopikerstraat 40 (todays numbering) with a (one story) workshop behind the house (today Varkensmarkt 4). He enlarged the workshop into a 2 stories workshop in 1905, and employed 13 people at that time. Pictures etc. of the workshop: Rene Kappers, 'Van Utrecht tot Peking en Hemels Goud' in: Oud gebouw; nieuw gebruik. Erfgoed voor de creatieve Zilverstad, Historische Vereniging Schoonhoven 2011, p.7-8.
(This book will be available in pdf from the new HVS website as from July 20th)

It would be interesting to know how the company continued in Utrecht. That is beyond my knowledge.
It would be even more interesting for the Schoonhoven history of the Zilverstad to have pictures of the Driesen silversmiths: Lya do you have any pictures ? If so, please send them to rene.kappers@live.nl.

Sources used:
Genealogical information: www.wiewaswie.nl (formerly 'genlias'). All gen. data in Schoonhoven unless specified otherwise.
Gold/silversmith/makers mark information: Stamboek Waarborg, kantoor Schoonhoven, 1837-1911 (Ned.Zilvermuseum Schoonhoven, Coll. Van Dongen inv.nrs. 465, 466) stbk.nrs 121,196, 360; Stamboek idem 1911-1933, nrs. 11, 174, 436.

oel
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Re: Need help with AJD maker's mark

Postby oel » Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:46 pm

Hi Rene,
Thank you for the update, much appreciated.

Schoonhoven, the national silver city of the Netherlands and hometown of the Dutch silver museum; Nederlands Zilvermuseum http://www.zilvermuseum.com/

The book; Zilversmeden van de stad Schoonhoven, by S.A.C. Begeer, E. Hak, L. Linhart-du Cloux, has been published in 1981 by the Zilvermuseum in Schoonhoven.
An important reference book for people who are interested in the history of Schoonhoven silversmiths, their work and their maker’s marks, names & dates, including the Schoonhoven city silver marks & date letters. Unfortunately the book has been written and edited in a hurry, as mentioned by Mr. Begeer in the introduction. He says, due to time pressure, errors could have been made.
As national silver city, to maintain a leading position, the Zilvermuseum of Schoonhoven and the city of Schoonhoven should take an effort to publish a new updated edition of the book Zilversmeden van de stad Schoonhoven. Will be much appreciated.

Best,

Peter van Oel

walterm
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Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:27 am

Re: Need help with AJD maker's mark

Postby walterm » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:03 pm

Brilliant information...thanks...
My spoon has the A*J*Dx hallmark horizontally and a small illegible stamp that is perpendicular to it and after it.
Any ideas what that small illegible stamp could be?

I'm trying to post a picture of the spoon's design, but am not sure how to do it...this is all I get when I try to add the JPG
/Users/waltermathews/Desktop/IMG_1434.JPG

I'll try to describe it and hope someone can provide some info about it's meaning:
from top to bottom:
a nub protrudes [to hang the spoon?]
Then a castle turret that is slightly off center over decorative swirls.
Then a face that appears to be on a 'loving cup'
Then the stem of the spoon made of two twisted bands with 4 overlaps
Then another head in a 'loving cup' design
Then the dish of the spoon.
Anyone have any thoughts?
Thank you...walter

oel
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Re: Need help with AJD maker's mark

Postby oel » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:10 pm

Hi, welcome to the forum. Images are required see:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=42199

Good luck.

Peter

walterm
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Re: Need help with AJD maker's mark

Postby walterm » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:43 pm

Thanks, Peter...that was easier than I thought...[if it now works!]

Image

Have I done that correctly?

Walter

oel
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Re: Need help with AJD maker's mark

Postby oel » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:53 pm

Yes Walter, great image. Ornamental spoon, twisted stem with Cupid/Amor head. The spoon finial to me looks like a lighthouse(?). We also need an clear image of all marks.

Peter.

walterm
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Re: Need help with AJD maker's mark

Postby walterm » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:38 pm

I appreciate your help, Peter...
Twisted stem with Cupid head sounds right.

Here's another pic of the top of the spoon...it could be a castle tower with gate entry.
Image

I don't have a macro-lens to capture the stamps...but it does show A*J*D and I guess a small x
The other stamp perpendicular to this is totally illegible..
Image

What do you think? Walter

oel
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Re: Need help with AJD maker's mark

Postby oel » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:45 pm

We do need a macro enhanced image of the marks. The small mark could be the sword mark. For more information about the sword mark and Dutch (hall)marks see:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=32028

Best,

Peter

walterm
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Re: Need help with AJD maker's mark

Postby walterm » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:23 pm

That seals the deal, Peter...It is the sword from 1906-1953...you are brilliant...thank you so much...stay well...walter

Essexboy Fisher
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Re: Need help with AJD maker's mark

Postby Essexboy Fisher » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:02 pm

Hello I hope this might be another image for this post. It was from an online spoon. It was obviously made by the Driesen family of silversmiths.

Image
Image
My identification is the “early” Anthonie and Jacobus Johannes but I think the date letter is the lower cased “i” for 1868 and 2 years before those published dates. I thought the “city” mark was “A” for Amsterdam but equally it might be the worn “M” for Schoonhoven where it is stated they worked. Hope the images are useful and I look forward to see if there are any corrections that I need to put on my own stored photos.
Yours
Fishless

oel
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Re: Need help with AJD maker's mark

Postby oel » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:51 pm

Hi Fishless, thank you very much. Yes early mark of Anthonie & Jacobus Johannes Driesen used around 1870/1910. The year letter is L (lowercase) for 1870 in a round striped shield.Indeed regional assay office letter M (worn) for Schoonhoven.

Peter.


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