Are any of these real marks?

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
SilverK
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:46 pm

Are any of these real marks?

Postby SilverK » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:45 am

Hello forum, I have this Dutch commemorative spoon which has a variety of marks on it. Some I believe are pseudo marks, for example the 'IV', the 'U' and the Dutch provincial lion for 1st standard. Can anyone advise from the photo which are the real marks, perhaps, for example the 'X' date letter?

Many thanks,

Silverk.

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oel
co-admin
Posts: 3404
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:16 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Are any of these real marks?

Postby oel » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:30 am

Hi Silverk,

Commemorative spoon theme Faith, Hope and Love.

Does the commemorative spoon show a repair rat tail connection and drop? The spoon has been gilded later and perhaps after the repair.
The marks; Amsterdam town mark, year letter X and the provincial lion rampant appears to be OK. Located at the back of the bowl and left of the rat tail. The year-letter X could be for 1757. IV could be the initials of a Amsterdam silversmith. The circular mark under the lion rampant, I can't figure out. Could you check if any silver as been removed for assay? See for extra information:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=28590#p121450
Enhanced clear images of all mark are required to confirm. At the moment without my reference books perhaps after 19th December able to give more information.



Peter.

SilverK
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:46 pm

Re: Are any of these real marks?

Postby SilverK » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:45 am

Hi Peter,

Thanks very much for your very fast response, as always.

First, yes, unfortunately it is repaired.

Secondly, as regards the marks, I've attached much better images for examination. The first of these shows the circular mark you couldn't figure out and looks like a partial primitive horse. The third of the images shows another, perhaps partial Amsterdam mark, that I hadn't shown before. Also in direct response to your question, there is an assay scrape which is shown in that same image. Look to the right of the mark at approxiumately the same level, close to the edge of the picture. It's more obvious in real life than in the picture.

Hopefully, that gives you all the info you need!

Many thanks,

Silverk.

Image
Image
Image

oel
co-admin
Posts: 3404
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:16 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Are any of these real marks?

Postby oel » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:53 am

Dear Silverk,

The spoon has been tampered with.

Indeed very clear images. Looking at the marks in detail, I am afraid we looking at bogus fake marks. For comparison, a good set of marks Amsterdam 1757. If we go back in time, year letter X for 1732 same problem, and if we go ahead in time X for 1782 again no good.
Image

Best,

Peter

SilverK
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:46 pm

Re: Are any of these real marks?

Postby SilverK » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:58 pm

Dear Peter,

Much as I had thought, thanks. There are so many fakes on this type of Dutch spoon, it's hard to have any confidence in any of them.

Regards,

Silverk.

Traintime
contributor
Posts: 969
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:44 pm

Re: Are any of these real marks?

Postby Traintime » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:58 pm

Silverk, my condolences on your aquisition. Hopefully we're all wiley buyers here and no one puts their head on the chopping block. Thanks for bringing an item to the forum from which we can all learn something. (I sometimes buy things I have little use for just so we have something documentable to record which someone can reference in order to eliminate all that mish mash of mis-direction. Conjecture is alright for inquiry, but should never be assumed to be fact.) Good hunting to you!
Two questions-Did someone actually try to push this off as real, or was it a recovered object from a passive purchasing situation? Are we concluding the assay scrape itself was faked by the artist, or were they re-using something recovered?

SilverK
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:46 pm

Re: Are any of these real marks?

Postby SilverK » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:07 am

Dear Traintime,

Actually, in this case, the spoon doesn't belong to me, thank goodness, but I wanted to test my thoughts that the marks were fake. Given Peter's question of me, I did find what I thought was a genuine assay mark, but I guess it must have been unrelated damage.

Have a great Christmas!

Silverk.


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