CPB makers mark (Charles Penny Brown?) but no city stamp - fake?

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
susuwatari
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CPB makers mark (Charles Penny Brown?) but no city stamp - fake?

Postby susuwatari » Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:44 am

Dear all,

I was hoping you could help with some research into a silver doohickey I found while metal detecting in central Scotland. There are only three hallmarks present which I know is usually an indicator of something fishy! The lion passant guardant is present but worn, and the date stamp looks more like a 6 than anything else I could identify.

CPB brought me to the Birmingham board as Charles Penny Brown is who comes up for the maker mark, but it doesn't look like any other examples out there - and all others have the city mark. I don't know what the doohickey is (and I know this isn't the place for IDs) but it does fit with Penny Brown's work, given the sharp curves on the back of this object and the holes it could have been attached to a purse or something similar I imagine.

Can anyone help? I'm sorry I'm a novice, I'm not even sure it's silver... from the back it might be plated? Hope these images are clear enough!

Front with hallmarks: [url]i63.tinypic.com/2cogdow.jpg[/url]

Lion plus date stamp?: [url]i64.tinypic.com/noj4ll.jpg[/url]

Makers mark:[url]i68.tinypic.com/35ajd6w.jpg[/url] vs real Charles Penny Brown stamp: http://www.silvercollection.it/592INGLESEBIS.jpg

Back of piece: [url]i63.tinypic.com/23kxnab.jpg[/url]

susuwatari
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Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:34 am

Re: CPB makers mark (Charles Penny Brown?) but no city stamp - fake?

Postby susuwatari » Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:48 am

Sorry for messing up the urls..... n00b error :(


Front with hallmarks: http://i63.tinypic.com/2cogdow.jpg

Lion plus date stamp?: http://i64.tinypic.com/noj4ll.jpg

Makers mark: http://i68.tinypic.com/35ajd6w.jpg vs real Charles Penny Brown stamp: http://www.silvercollection.it/592INGLESEBIS.jpg

Back of piece: http://i63.tinypic.com/23kxnab.jpg

susuwatari
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:34 am

Re: CPB makers mark (Charles Penny Brown?) but no city stamp - fake?

Postby susuwatari » Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:10 pm

Sorry again, normally I can use forums, honest! If this doesn't work I'll stop spamming my own thread.


Front with hallmarks: Image

Lion plus date stamp?:
Image

Makers mark: Image
vs real Charles Penny Brown stamp: Image

Back of piece: Image


Sorry again! TIA :)

AG2012
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Re: CPB makers mark (Charles Penny Brown?) but no city stamp - fake?

Postby AG2012 » Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:37 pm

Hi,
Welcome to the forum.
Charles Penny Brown, Birmingham, made leather goods (e.g. purses, wallets). I suppose the item you found is a clasp that was riveted to leather (three holes). There is a possibility this was not the only silver part and the anchor mark was elsewhere.
Cheers

susuwatari
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Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:34 am

Re: CPB makers mark (Charles Penny Brown?) but no city stamp - fake?

Postby susuwatari » Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:11 pm

Thanks for taking the time to reply!

I agree that another component could have the anchor, I hadn't found an example of this until recently. CPB was apparently only smithing from 1902-1909 and I'm having a hard time matching the date mark up. A 'b' would suggest 1901 which would make it the earliest piece I could find... and the stamp looks more intentionally rounded at the top, so I'm not sure?

Looking at his purses and wallets it's a bit too ornate, maybe it's a hinge from a prayer book or similar. Either way, I've always loved silver and this is a fascinating intro, thank you!

dognose
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Re: CPB makers mark (Charles Penny Brown?) but no city stamp - fake?

Postby dognose » Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:26 pm

Hi Susuwatari,

Welcome to the Forum.

CPB was apparently only smithing from 1902-1909


This is incorrect. Brown started his business around 1860, and his firm, later styled Charles P. Brown & Sons, were noted as exhibitors at the British Industries Fair of 1915.

Trev.

susuwatari
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Re: CPB makers mark (Charles Penny Brown?) but no city stamp - fake?

Postby susuwatari » Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:44 pm

Thank you for the clarification, I wrongly assumed from some webpage :(

dognose wrote:This is incorrect. Brown started his business around 1860, and his firm, later styled Charles P. Brown & Sons, were noted as exhibitors at the British Industries Fair of 1915.

Trev.

silvermakersmarks
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Re: CPB makers mark (Charles Penny Brown?) but no city stamp - fake?

Postby silvermakersmarks » Wed Jul 20, 2016 3:11 pm

That would be my web site you got the information from. Please note that the dates on my site only represent the dates for which I have seen that particular mark and do not represent any sort of absolute working dates. This is carefully explained on the site's front page.

Phil

susuwatari
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Re: CPB makers mark (Charles Penny Brown?) but no city stamp - fake?

Postby susuwatari » Wed Jul 20, 2016 5:06 pm

Thanks Phil, I wasn't careful enough in my research and reading for sure - but I think I got it elsewhere (I wouldn't consider your resource "some website"!). I remember it mentioned a 1902 stamp being the "earliest" whereas your site has 1903.

Can anyone make a guess at/can identify the date stamp? Sorry if I'm being blind! Thanks again.

AG2012
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Re: CPB makers mark (Charles Penny Brown?) but no city stamp - fake?

Postby AG2012 » Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:26 am

I think it`s 1876.
Cheers

silvermakersmarks
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Re: CPB makers mark (Charles Penny Brown?) but no city stamp - fake?

Postby silvermakersmarks » Thu Jul 21, 2016 3:13 am

My vote would be for 1895, on both letter shape and punch shape (the latter being oval for 1876).

Phil

AG2012
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Re: CPB makers mark (Charles Penny Brown?) but no city stamp - fake?

Postby AG2012 » Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:06 am

Agree.It`s letter ``v``.
Cannot recall variations in backgrounds during the late 19th century (I think they have been discussed).
Cheers

susuwatari
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Re: CPB makers mark (Charles Penny Brown?) but no city stamp - fake?

Postby susuwatari » Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:54 am

Thanks so very much folks, that looks right! Really appreciate your help and sorry for newbie questions.

Phil, would you want to use photos of this item component for an updated earliest seen CPB set of marks? I understand if the absence of the anchor or the remainder of the object put you off, but otherwise I can take more photos to your specifications :)

silvermakersmarks
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Re: CPB makers mark (Charles Penny Brown?) but no city stamp - fake?

Postby silvermakersmarks » Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:21 pm

Thanks, susuwatari, my entry for Brown will include the new date next time I update my site.

Phil


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