Teapot - cannot identify all the marks

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
stickyb
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:28 am

Teapot - cannot identify all the marks

Postby stickyb » Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:49 am

I have teapot, i can make out the lion mark and Victoria's head, but not the rest.

Can you help me please?


X

X

piette
contributor
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:51 pm
Location: London, United Kingdom

Re: Teapot - cannot identify all the marks

Postby piette » Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:52 am

Hi,
This is a nice teapot you have here, in a nice design.
The date letter on this item is for 1847.
I will check my books later when I have access to them for the maker, although someone else will probably beat me to it in the mean time! It is most likely William Chawner or William Cooper but perhaps not...
Regards,
Piette

stickyb
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:28 am

Re: Teapot - cannot identify all the marks

Postby stickyb » Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:41 am

Thank you fpr the information piette.

As i am a complete novice in this area, coul you tell me what the marks are at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock?

Ar 12 I see the lion and at 6 i see Victoria

Thanks

piette
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Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:51 pm
Location: London, United Kingdom

Re: Teapot - cannot identify all the marks

Postby piette » Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:43 pm

Hi,
The top mark is ofcourse the left facing lion with paw raised which indicates solid sterling silver.
The mark on the right is the date letter "m" which indicates the year 1847.
The bottom mark is the queen victoria monarchs mark which indicates the piece dates from 1837-1890.
The left mark is the leopards head (without a crown!) which indicates that the item was made in London after 1822. Note - if the leopards head was crowned then this indicates it was made in London before 1822.

The mark in the middle "WC" is the makers mark.

Regards,
Piette

silverport
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Location: Portugal

Re: Teapot - cannot identify all the marks

Postby silverport » Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:33 pm

WC or W-C or ...

Hello »stickyb«

Welcome to the Forum.

Indeed for every »New be« is the identification of markings a difficulty — but by time and while, if you handle many items, look on details, read literature, and of course some internet-sites too, think over the seen and read information, then you would become a “feeling” of it self.

In yours actual case there is much more information hidden as only the visible and official London Assay marks.

Before I “walk” with you clockwise over the visible markings, I request you very kindly, to host one more, but ‘high resolution’ photo file of the markings area. There are, next to the more visible ‘struck’ marks, also ‘scratched’ marks.

These ‘scratched’ marks seem to be hiding also of some historical information too. These could be prices, stock inventory codes

Now let’s start our walk:

At ‘12oclock’ — as you’ve already observed, and »piette« has informed, is placed the to the left walking, left looking »lion« in the similar as the year indication letter cycles changing cartouche.

At ‘3oclock’ is placed the ‘Year indication letter’ — which is the Gothic capital letter »M« = 1847; and not the Gothic minuscule letter »m« = 1867.

At ‘6oclock’ — as you’ve also already observed, and »piette« also has informed, is placed the »Queen Victoria« duty mark, facing left too, in a vertical oval cartouche. This mark has remained the same, been struck 1837-1890.

At ‘9oclock’ — as also already »piette« has informed too, is placed the »Leopard’s head«, the sign of the London Assay Office.

You must always hold in mind, that each item was made before the Assay procedure. That signification is, that the item could be made in the same year of Assay — but also years or self decennia of years before. There are many European countries, but also in other area of the Globe, which haven’t ‘Year indication letters’. Another example are the Scandinavians, there is often also the month of Assay indicated.

Now let’s walk to the inner circle:

In the middle seems to be struck the »maker’s mark«: WC

But if you look keen on that mark, then you would observe, there was already before another maker’s mark — now over struck by WC. WC is then maybe a wholesaler’s mark? But actually couldn’t be identified by me; sorry.

Above and below this WC-mark, let’s say wholesaler’s mark, as I assume are struck retailers marks?

MATHEY & Co

REGENT ST.

At ‘9oclock’ of the inner circle isn’t maybe a production mistake — but maybe it is another mark?

Right side of the latter, are writtenscratch’ marks visible (turn left side up); like to be a ‘pricecode?

Now let’s look to another WC-mark (in Antique-letters, in a nearly circle like super oval cartouche):

W-C

That is the in London in December 1844 registered maker’s mark of William Cooper; known from a »tea pot«.

Yours tea pot is stylistically well from that time period before the big London Exhibition of 1851.

But actually it couldn’t be stated, that yours tea pot is maybe made by William Cooper.

Kind regards silverport

stickyb
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:28 am

Re: Teapot - cannot identify all the marks

Postby stickyb » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:17 am

Silverport - all I can say is "Wow, I am impressed"

As a Newbie, thanks so much.

silverport
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Location: Portugal

Re: Teapot - cannot identify all the marks

Postby silverport » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:42 pm

Price indication scratches …

Hello »stickyb«

As I’ve already mentioned to you, in yours actual case there is much more information hidden as only the visible and official London Assay marks.

Thank you for hosting a high resolution photo — indeed it’s necessary and very informative too.

These ‘scratched’ marks are hiding some historical information, e.g. mainly prices, and at least an owner’s name

Almost scratches are readable if you turn the pot’s bottom left side (clockwise), about 90º plus.

Let’s start our 'walk':

At ‘1oclock’ — is as I assume, scratched (upside down) an owner’s name: BENNET

At ‘3oclock(left side of the ‘Year indication letter’) could be some ciphers (or that are fingerprints only?).

At ‘5oclock’ — only in this case readable in (normal) vertical position: In two lines, between some dividing horizontal lines, a Price indication, I assume: 17 // 1 / o

At ‘7oclock’, more to the inner circle — another Price indication, I assume: 25 / II . II o

At ‘8oclock’ — in two lines a maybe owner’s and or place indication: … o l l e ry (second line)

At ‘9oclock’ — I assume that the marks letter could be a kind of minuscule script r. That is a »Journeyman-mark« - a silversmith who works in his own workplace for others, e.g. traders. He would be paid per finished item.

Right side of the »Journeyman-mark« are some little price indication scratches.

At ‘10oclock’ — as I assume, is a bigger scratched, individual price indication area; which getting his numerals by individual notice, e.g. by a pencil.

There I see as Price indication: $o (= Sovereign), sh (= Shilling), x (= Pence).

Very interesting is the Price Index of that time period. The Journeyman’s income was in that time period very low — he had maybe to make 100 tea pots, before he could buy one.

http://www.parliament.uk/documents/comm ... 06-009.pdf

»Price Index 1750-2005«, p. 12-17, p. 13 (14/21) for the Year 1847:

1847 Change in Prices on Year before (1846) = + 12.0 %

Then after 1847, from 1848 until 1852 on, has happen a steady decrease in Prices:
(in 1851 was the »Commonwealth Exhibition« in London)

1848 Change in Prices on Year before (1847) = - 12.1 %
1849 Change in Prices on Year before (1848) = - 6.3 %
1850 Change in Prices on Year before (1849) = - 6.4 %
1851 Change in Prices on Year before (1850) = - 3.0 %
1852 Change in Prices on Year before (1851) = - 0.0 %
1853 Change in Prices on Year before (1852) = + 9.3 %
1854 Change in Prices on Year before (1853) = + 15.1 %
1855 Change in Prices on Year before (1854) = + 3.3 %
1856 Change in Prices on Year before (1855) = - 0.0 %

You’ve an item, which is in style and additional scratches a real document of the Victorian time period.

I think you wouldn’t do any harm to this document, if you now like to make an unobtrusive additional owners notice [in the area above the “lion”, or below the Queens head]: Maybe yours name, date of buy, price — and maybe for the latter historians: »925-1000« topic 22684

For final let me say: Thank you for yours presentation and cooperation!

Happy New Year 2011 - and collectors luck too!

Kind regards silverport

stickyb
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:28 am

Re: Teapot - cannot identify all the marks

Postby stickyb » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:10 pm

Silverport, thank you for your time. You are a mine of information.

I am not really a collector and did not buy this item; it belonged to my mother-in-law before her death 20 years ago and i sudenly got the urge to investigate it. There is no history that i know off attached to it.

Once again, thank you.


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