Help Identify Marks (likely Europe/Dutch)

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
Dad
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Re: Help Identify Marks (likely Europe/Dutch)

Postby Dad » Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:28 am

AG2012 wrote:......But, were the measurements so precise at the time ?
......


It should be noted that St. Petersburg the assay office was created on the basis of the new St. Petersburg Mint. The St. Petersburg experts were the best.

AG2012
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Re: Help Identify Marks (likely Europe/Dutch)

Postby AG2012 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:08 am

Pay attention to this:
Image

This is not a mark of any kind, being a decoration makes no sense in this position.
Was a sample taken like this for fire assay ? (similar to Tremolierstich).
Not easy to tell based on images here but under 10 X jeweler`s loupe it would be easy to identify the grooves made by the chisel.
If so,they were unmatched masters.

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Re: Help Identify Marks (likely Europe/Dutch)

Postby Qrt.S » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:23 am

@Dad,
Unfortunately I cannot find/I don't have the Decree 7517 of February 22, 1732) where it is stated that the silver fineness could be 75 zolotnik. Nonetheless, 75 was applied for gold coins only (1718). During the 18th century there was many "standards" for silver 62, 70, 72, 77...The 75 was, as said, for gold. In general, the 17th century's marks are rather "messy". Would you mind showing the decree 7517? It would be of interest to me. Thank you in advance.

@Goldstein

What if you reread what is written instead of sodding as usual? If an object is made i Germany/Hamburg with German marks, and carries Russian later hallmarks, isn't it "imported" to Russia, if not in your opinion, what is it?

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Re: Help Identify Marks (likely Europe/Dutch)

Postby Goldstein » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:35 pm

Qrt.S -

a little tutoring what the word "import" means:

Basic forms of foreign trade are transit trade, import and export, with the flow of goods flows from abroad to domestic and the flow of payments from domestic to foreign countries. Importing economic entities (corporations, households, the state and its subdivisions such as public administration and state-owned enterprises) are known as importers and have a trading relationship with foreign exporters. The import requires that the exporter transfers the goods / services to the importer on the basis of the terms of delivery (retention of title does not harm) and that the importer pays the purchase price to the exporter based on the terms of payment (supplier credit / customer credit is not harmful ). The procurement of the goods must be made from abroad, whereby it is also in the same currency area (such as Germany / France) to imports. Imports are only available for the complete transfer of ownership, so that the rent, lending, lease or leasing is at best an import of services.

Imported goods include mainly commodities, commodities (such as commodities) or capital goods (machinery). In the case of services, the importation of tourism abroad is when, for example, a German undertakes a holiday trip abroad. The import of book money and capital is called capital import

If a traveler bring something for his personal use or a souvenir home from abroad - he is no importer. See above!

Often these things were then voluntarily subjected to an official examination in the home country to know what was actually bought and what fineness the precious metal used possessed - for personal reassurance, so to speak. There was no official compulsion! We know that from many objects from nearly all countries.

Regards
Goldstein

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Re: Help Identify Marks (likely Europe/Dutch)

Postby Qrt.S » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:39 pm

@Goldstein
You are not in the position to teach me in any matter that has been seen through the years so just be quiet!

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Re: Help Identify Marks (likely Europe/Dutch)

Postby Goldstein » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:31 pm

Qrt.S -

Under these circumstances, in my opinion the best policy is to provide as many facts on the issue as possible, allow the contributors to state their point of view in a civil manner, and let the readers make up their own minds!

Regards
Goldstein

Qrt.S
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Re: Help Identify Marks (likely Europe/Dutch)

Postby Qrt.S » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:34 pm

@Goldstein,

Your "facts" are known, unnecessary to repeat them.

Dad
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Re: Help Identify Marks (likely Europe/Dutch)

Postby Dad » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:49 pm

Qrt.S wrote:@Dad,
Unfortunately I cannot find/I don't have the Decree 7517 of February 22, 1732) where it is stated that the silver fineness could be 75 zolotnik. Nonetheless, 75 was applied for gold coins only (1718). During the 18th century there was many "standards" for silver 62, 70, 72, 77...The 75 was, as said, for gold. In general, the 17th century's marks are rather "messy". Would you mind showing the decree 7517? It would be of interest to me. Thank you in advance.


Yes, of course.
On the Internet there is a resource including "Complete Collection of Laws of the Russian Empire". http://nlr.ru/e-res/law_r/descript.html

Laws are stated in a chronological order. It is an interactive resource. Having entered number of the law it is possible to receive the necessary page. Unfortunately, it is scans of original books. Laws are printed in old (prereform) Russian and pages cannot be edited.
Sorry, but I specified incorrectly year of the Decree. Correctly - 1738. But No. - correct.

Look at a fragment from this Decree.
Important! The requirement to purity of gold - 84 zolotniks (at least (!), but to silver - 72 (!)

Image

Dad
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Re: Help Identify Marks (likely Europe/Dutch)

Postby Dad » Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:15 pm

About "import".

I think, it is necessary to divide concepts. There is import of products for sale through customs. It is official import with the corresponding procedures and attributes.
But, silver products can be brought (from foreing) privately, as personal, own. Then, it was brought in assay office for check and punches.
I think, the second option is our case.

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Re: Help Identify Marks (likely Europe/Dutch)

Postby Qrt.S » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:14 pm

Thank you Dad, for the document and link. Very interesting documentation.

For those who are unable to understand Russian: The main content of the document is that the first underlined part stipulates that the minimum legal fineness for gold is 84 and for silver 72. The second underlined part stipulates that if an object in gold or silver was brought (by anybody) to the assay office in order to test its fineness and it reveals that the fineness is more than 84/72 e.g. 85/73, the exact fineness is punched in figures on the object. This means that the figures 75 indicate the fineness on the German object earlier in this thread. It is punched by the Russian assay office. In addition, most likely the customs brought it there. In other words an imported object.

What is stated above was valid to the end on April 1797 when the minimum silver fineness was increased to 84 as from May 1st 1798, which is still is.

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Re: Help Identify Marks (likely Europe/Dutch)

Postby Dad » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:39 pm

Qrt.S wrote:In addition, most likely the customs brought it there. In other words an imported object.


Qrt.S,
You are incorrigible (((
It is the wrong conclusion. See above.
The customs at that time sent nothing to an assay office. The customs had no such duty.

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Re: Help Identify Marks (likely Europe/Dutch)

Postby Qrt.S » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:55 am

OK Dad, so be it, not brought by the customs at that time. Imported articles were not hallmarked at all (Edict 13.2.1700). The hallmarking of foreign objects started later. Anyway, silver could not be sold on the silver row without having Russian hallmarks.


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