Mystery russian silversmith - Red Square cup holder

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
romanempire86
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Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:01 pm

Mystery russian silversmith - Red Square cup holder

Postby romanempire86 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:18 pm

Hey all,

I'm trying to figure out who the maker of this cup is...

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From my research, PM could be one of the following people:

1) Pyetr Milukov
2) Peter Milyukov
3) Petr Milyukov

Interested to see if anyone has some insights. I haven't been able to find anything else out there like this, so it's making the search difficult. Thanks!

romanempire86
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:01 pm

Re: Mystery russian silversmith - Red Square cup holder

Postby romanempire86 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:41 am

Some more detailed shots:

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Qrt.S
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Location: Helsinki Finland

Re: Mystery russian silversmith - Red Square cup holder

Postby Qrt.S » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:01 am

It would be much appreciated if the questioner before taking the photos cleaned the marks and polished the whole object. In this condition it looks awful. Anyway, the three names mentioned are all one and the same master i.e. Петр Павлович Милюков (Pyotr Pavlovich Milyukov) active in Moscow 1877-1917. The year in the control mark is 1873 eliminating Milyukov being the maker immediately. The assayer's mark BC is Veniamin Savinsky 1862-1875 but that doesn't help much. Unfortunately I'm unable to tell the maker's name.
Let's wait and see if somebody else knows him.

AG2012
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Re: Mystery russian silversmith - Red Square cup holder

Postby AG2012 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:03 am

Hi,

ПМ in Moscow:
Petr Mamontov ПМ with serifs and different letter ``M``
Pavla Mishukova ПМ worked later than 1873
Peter Milyukov PL 2819 (no serif, no dot)

From a Russian forum:
Originally posted:
Павел Милюков
Answered:
А точнее, Пётр Милюков

(Or rather Peter Milyukov)

His подстаканники (cup holders) are well documented.
The problem is year 1873.Peter Milyukov founded his workshop (``factory``) in 1877 (according to PL).

Regards

Qrt.S
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Re: Mystery russian silversmith - Red Square cup holder

Postby Qrt.S » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:31 am

@AG2012

Pyotr Mamontov's working period was 1771-1790
Pavla Mishukova's 1900-1912

Either of them not even close to 1873

One explanation to the difference between 1873 and 1877 could be that Milyukov founded his work shop in 1877, but when did he became master? Probably earlier.

AG2012
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Re: Mystery russian silversmith - Red Square cup holder

Postby AG2012 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:51 am

Very sound explanation by Qrt.S in regard of year 1873.
Becoming a master did not necessarily mean one can open``фабрика`` right away,of whatever size and number of employees.
We must assume he became master much earlier.
Besides, Skurlov claims the factory was founded in 1875.
МИЛЮКОВ Петр Павлович, владелец фабрики серебряник изделий, основанной в 1875 г.

He certainly expanded his business to manage 18 workers and 15 apprentices in 1897.

Regards

Goldstein
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Re: Mystery russian silversmith - Red Square cup holder

Postby Goldstein » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:36 am

Hi -

is he realy a mystery silversmith?

The shown cup holder marks seems altered - the used niello is very thin and the style is very modern. You find him in no list of niello masters - but in the list of cloisonné masters - though he worked in both and also in silver (see "Russian Gold And Silverwork" by Solodkoff, page 207).
Here some objects in different techniques by him:

Niello
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Cloisonné enamel
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Silver
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For me a dubious object.

Regards
Goldstein

Goldstein
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Re: Mystery russian silversmith - Red Square cup holder

Postby Goldstein » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:40 am

Hi -

glass holder with thumb rest handle are the early ones! The sloppy, "modern" architectural scene with less details does not fit.

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See correct examples with detailed scenes:

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Regards
Goldstein

Goldstein
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Re: Mystery russian silversmith - Red Square cup holder

Postby Goldstein » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:54 am

Hi -
for a better understanding I recommend:

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Image

Regards
Goldstein

romanempire86
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Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:01 pm

Re: Mystery russian silversmith - Red Square cup holder

Postby romanempire86 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:37 pm

Thank you everyone for the feedback. I'm new to collecting Russian silver as a hobby, so I was concerned that cleaning it would lower the value. Should I give it to a professional or do the old aluminum foil, baking soda, and salt trick?

I think Qrt.S has the most logical explanation of this being Пётр Милюков, before he opened his factory, but after he become a master.

As for this having dubious origins, this was passed down in my family for a few generations and I can trace it back to the original owner, my great great grandfather. He was of noble stature and a higher up in the Czars army, so I can see how he could afford such things.

Only thing that was strange to me is the double stamping of the assayers mark and the silver purity mark. Also, the PM initials are thinner than what I've seen on Пётр Милюков's other work.

Anyone have any examples of double stamps or mis-stamps like this?

AG2012
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Re: Mystery russian silversmith - Red Square cup holder

Postby AG2012 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:30 pm

Assayers did it for taxation, not not for us to admire or detest their marks.
Small punches are easier to use.Complicated and rather big punches sometimes leave imperfect marks.
They were applied by hammering, most often done by two persons.
After all, they could not afford to tell the silversmith they ruined his silver so he should go back to the workshop and make another piece.
In a word, assayers had their bad days, Russia included.
Regards

Goldstein
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Re: Mystery russian silversmith - Red Square cup holder

Postby Goldstein » Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:36 pm

Hi -
romanempire86 wrote:Only thing that was strange to me is the double stamping of the assayers mark and the silver purity mark. Also, the PM initials are thinner than what I've seen on Пётр Милюков's other work.


AG2012 wrote:In a word, assayers had their bad days, Russia included.


Fakers also have bad days.....

romanempire86 wrote:As for this having dubious origins, this was passed down in my family for a few generations and I can trace it back to the original owner, my great great grandfather. He was of noble stature and a higher up in the Czars army, so I can see how he could afford such things.


Now you can sit back and relax knowing you have an authentic family heirloom - even if everything speaks against it.
Clean it and you will be surprised again...

Regards
Goldstein

Adieu
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Re: Mystery russian silversmith - Red Square cup holder

Postby Adieu » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:03 am

All 3 names you listed are the same person transcripted differently

Modern Russian spelling would be Петр (or Пётр) Милюков...pre-reform spelling probably Милюковъ?

Could the architectural scene have been added later over a plain article? Or as a replacement for something thought to be politically incorrect enough to be dangerous with the new regime after the Revolution?

Adieu
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Re: Mystery russian silversmith - Red Square cup holder

Postby Adieu » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:09 am

And it's a "tea glass holder" or подстаканник, used to serve hot tea in a transparent glass... Idea is that it keeps it stable and gives you a cold handle, also allows you to have an unbreakable flashy expensive part that you just swap glasses through.

And you don't really have to wash it much so it doesn't tarnish.


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